Ep 177: Feelings Check In on the "sandwich generation" — caring for kids and aging parents

[00:00] Maybe I need a money therapist. I was going to tell a joke that I'm not going to tell. You're not going to tell it? No, I'm not going to tell it. No worries. The Feelings Check-In is a podcast for people who love to listen to two women overshare about the challenges of building a business, navigating careers in tech, and trying to have a personal life. I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? No. No. [00:27] Just boy stuff. Hi. [00:29] Hi. Here we have the feelings check-in. Yeah, we have feelings check-in. You've been getting a lot of feedback on last week's feelings check-in. I know. I've been really grateful to hear that from people because I thought it would resonate with people, but you never know. You never know. And you also, the feeling is always when you... [00:48] do something vulnerable to regret it. [00:50] vulnerability hangover big time for those who are unfamiliar with what we're talking about last week's feelings check-in I talked a little bit about how I'm feeling about [00:59] myself and the way that I look and how it feels to get older and [01:03] all the complicated emotions around that and what i wanted is for other people to be like oh my gosh i have felt this way and that's really nice that other people feel that way too [01:12] What I didn't want were people to be like, you're so pretty. Like, I don't, I didn't want that. And it's been really nice because that, [01:19] what people have done has been like, oh, this has been my experience. Like, it's really nice to hear about yours. And it's a normal part of getting older. And it just felt like... [01:28] really thoughtful, kind, insightful conversation around it in the Discord. Yeah, totally. I feel like

[01:35] At this point, 175 episodes in. We can count on our listeners to... [01:39] be really thoughtful people. Yeah, totally. Totally. Really thoughtful notes that we get back on people that are listening and just, yeah, I really appreciate that. And I think a lot of the discourses around work and like how you look and age in relation to your work. And I mean, there's a lot that we could talk about there, but that seemed to strike a chord for folks as well. [01:57] Totally. The other thing that I thought was really [02:00] beautiful was people talking about like their relationship to their daughters. [02:03] and what they [02:05] are thinking about [02:08] in terms of how they talk about themselves and how their daughters talk about themselves. And I thought that was so beautiful to hear sort of moms figuring it out together in the discord and... [02:19] being really open about how complicated it is. And it's really interesting. It's like, oh, your experience as a [02:25] person and as a woman and as a mother and as a daughter, like all of us are kind of all like sorting through it together, which was really nice. Totally. There was some conversation about that specifically in Discord. And I can't remember who was saying, but they were talking about how they're just like really mindful about like what type of compliments they pay to their daughter. And I've been thinking a lot about that too, about how you speak to and like what things you're [02:51] how [02:53] I hadn't really been thinking about that because I have... [02:55] boys and the body image stuff. [02:58] certainly is there but just in a different way and I have no personal experience of what that's like as a woman and but I've been thinking a lot about how I speak to Oscar my my eight-year-old in particular about his body and like I think also it's I have to stop myself because I also see his friends that are girls who

[03:15] They're all so beautiful and they're so adorable. Totally. And like all I want to do when I see them and when I see their parents, I talk about like how beautiful and adorable they all are. Yeah. [03:25] But I also don't know that that is... [03:28] most helpful thing to do when [03:31] in light of like what we talked about last week when it's like you're just being praised for how you look and and i feel as though i'm being misunderstood in that because i'm not just talking about how [03:39] I'm just like, they're such beautiful little people. Totally. And all of it. It's not just how they look. Yeah. Anyway, it's complicated. It's very complicated. But I love everybody who listens to this podcast. I love everybody. I love everybody. Okay, so... [03:54] Let's get into today's feeling check-in. Let's do it. [03:56] you [03:58] Hey, Natasha. So a question we get asked a lot is, what do you look for in a crypto platform? So let's talk about it. Well, Dina, I look for a secure, no fuss platform that I can dive into right away. That's why I love today's sponsor, Kraken. If you're waiting for the right time to get into crypto, Kraken makes it super easy and intuitive to get started. Plus, if you get stuck, they have an award-winning client support team that's available 24-7, along with a bunch of educational guides, articles, and videos to help you along [04:27] to kraken.com backslash boys club and see what crypto can be not investment advice crypto trading involves risk of loss and is offered to us customers through payward interactive inc [04:39] Okay, so I came across a term the other day that I was like, man, I feel really seen by this.

[04:46] And it's the sandwich generation. [04:49] Okay. [04:50] And I wanted to talk about it here. [04:53] It's this idea of a generation of people, typically like 35, 33 to 35 to 55 people. [05:02] 50 maybe where you are [05:06] taking care of [05:08] Young kids? [05:09] And you have the responsibilities of taking care of [05:11] kids and then also [05:14] have the responsibility of taking care of aging parents and feeling squeezed and pressure from both sides. [05:23] up and down and you're kind of sitting in the middle just like having to hold it all and [05:28] That is what I've been doing the past couple months, especially it's been amplified as, um, [05:36] One of my parents in particular has just been a lot of needs and a lot of needs from my parents. And then, of course, like... [05:43] needs from having a four year old and an eight year old, which is fine and normal, as is fine and normal to have needs from aging parents as well. But it's become really potent. [05:55] recently for me and [05:58] It's like... [05:59] Kind of like, that's it. That's the lot you're dealt. There's no like... [06:05] something to do about it and it feels bad. Yeah, I have seen [06:11] you in this and I have just a lot of empathy for [06:16] how much you are caring for people.

[06:18] And... [06:20] I think that when I've watched you, I've been like, wow, that... [06:23] is a lot [06:26] Out. [06:27] Like there's just a lot of output that's required when you're taking care of anybody, but specifically [06:33] I think the combination that you talked about where these are relationships that are steeped in... [06:41] a specific type of feeling. Like the way that you take care of your kids is very different than the way that you take care of your parents. And both of those relationships are like charged no matter what. [06:49] and... [06:50] that means that you are, you're pouring out a lot. [06:55] And [06:57] there's [06:58] very little... [07:00] reserves for [07:02] you to be cared for. [07:04] Like I'm like, who's taking care of Tina? And like Dave, obviously I know is there and amazing and like you guys have a wonderful relationship. And but I just think like in that in this season of your life, anybody in this season of their life, it's. [07:17] you have to find other areas that like fill your cup and make it so that you can [07:22] give the love that is required and [07:26] find a source of care for people when, when, [07:30] It's generative. It's like in you. It's not like [07:33] there's something else that's pouring into that yeah totally and then you're like what do you do for self-care and i google it and they're like have a bath what are you talking about i will say i had an epstein i've seen salt bath an epstein bath [07:48] Epsom. Epsom? Epsom, I think it is. Okay, salt bath.

[07:55] It was really nice. [07:56] So it's something I just should think about. But yeah. [08:01] It's very hard to find things that are life-giving that aren't time-consuming. [08:05] And you are so time poor. - Yeah. - Actually, [08:07] There's this podcast I've been wanting to talk to you about. Have you listened to On Being... [08:11] I won't shut the fuck up on this podcast episode. With what's her name? Kara Trippett? Krista Tippett. Krista Tippett. I have maybe listened to one episode before of hers. Okay. Someone sent me an episode of hers with John O'Donohue. [08:25] Okay. [08:25] I'm going to send it to you. We'll put it in the show notes. And this episode specifically was from, she republished it, but it was, I think, from like 2013 or 2009. And then he died. [08:36] shortly after and he is a philosopher and a poet and was i believe like a priest for 13 years [08:42] And it's... [08:43] in i've listened to it twice i'm going to listen to it again like it's it's so dense and there's just so much it's very rich and there's a lot in it that i really loved but one of the things that he talked about that i felt like was really impactful to me and has made me think about my life and i think is relevant to this conversation he talked a lot about time my favorite part that's really stuck with me was all of his [09:07] sort of thinking around time as a construct and [09:11] I'm a very time conscious person. Like I'm very on time. I just have like a really clear internal clock. Like, [09:17] and I'm a big planner and [09:20] So when he started talking about time, I was like, Oh, I tuned in in a different kind of way. And I think it's relevant to this conversation. Two things. One,

[09:27] when you're taking care of either side of [09:31] the equation that you're talking about. [09:32] you're so present to time. Like with your kids, it's like every day, [09:37] they're going to be different the next day. And... [09:39] If you're not spending time with them, you're losing that. And that's... [09:43] hard and... [09:45] wanting to enjoy it. And then with your parents, for anybody's parents, they're aging and the days that you have with them are so limited and [09:52] There's this, I can't remember who it is. Maybe it's what Malcolm Gladwell talks about. [09:57] that if you like run the math as an adult in your 30s or in your 40s [10:01] you have it's something the average person has something like 30 more visits with their parents. Like you have 30 more times that you're going to hang out with your parents essentially. And what do you want that time to look like? And [10:12] So... [10:13] some of the things that [10:15] in this podcast with John [10:17] O'Donohue, he talked about [10:19] that stress is a perverted relationship to time. [10:23] that as we start to have in Western culture, we have this like anxiety to time and our anxiety to filling our days and [10:31] making plans and that is actually a really perverted relationship to time [10:35] And he talked about how time is... [10:38] the mother of presence and that if we have a different relationship to time we're able to have [10:43] a different relationship to being present in our lives and in our bodies and with other people. And that you can start to see time as actually the creative act, that every moment that passes is a new creation of your own life or your own creative output. And I've been thinking a lot

[11:02] I can change things. [11:04] my relationship to the way that I think about time. And I think this goes back to the conversation about aging and, um, [11:11] feeling [11:11] anxious and stressed about that and [11:14] re-imagining and reframing time as this thing that is a beautiful movement through life and [11:21] if we can be present to that, we can be like more present in our relationships. I have such a scarcity mindset of our own time right now. It's crazy. It's insane how it's, [11:31] that is not at all reflects my current outlook on it. So [11:36] I need... [11:38] You receive. I receive. You receive. Yeah, big time. Everything is just... [11:44] feels like the opposite of that and [11:46] That would be a real gift to change my perspective on. I think another thing I really need to change my perspective on is the money of it. [11:54] feels... [11:55] bad. Both of my parents right now have health issues, but one of my parents [11:59] It has worse health issues and also [12:04] really is lives on social security and doesn't have... [12:09] Savings or money, really. Any money coming in. He lives under Social Security. [12:14] And that is a result of a lifetime of decisions that I... [12:19] have nothing to speak into around like that's that's [12:23] and he didn't live his life irresponsibly or anything. He was just, he was a professional musician his whole life. And, [12:28] that's the path that he chose and that was beautiful as is beautiful as well. But I think part of what has changed,

[12:36] been coming up for me a lot is I, I am financially responsible for him and, [12:42] and [12:44] now in many ways and [12:46] that I have [12:49] Just a lot of resentment around that. [12:52] and feel... [12:54] Like I wasn't. [12:56] I feel like I got... [12:58] You didn't consent to that. I didn't consent to that. And I got like a short end of some sort of stick that I didn't even know that the stick existed. Yeah. And somewhere. [13:08] along the way, like, [13:09] I don't know if it would have been better or worse for someone to say this could be coming up in your future as a thing that you're going to need to take care of. I didn't even it wasn't even in my view. [13:19] And now all of a sudden, it's not only in my view, but on my plate as a very meaningful monthly outgoing expense. And also just like generally a thing that I'm thinking about and managing a lot, even just in a relationship, like no one wants to feel dependent on their daughter either. And so like, it's just heavy, it's heavy in that between us. And also the financial burden of it is very, very real and equal to if not greater than the one that I'm managing with my kids. And so the [13:49] what it is and also planning around it is very murky and what happens next and all of that it's like I have no idea no resources I don't know who to talk to like there's not even anything to talk about it's like this is the situation and I need to deal with it but I think beyond even all of that is

[14:08] the resentment is fueling this thing in me that's like, [14:12] I would never [14:13] want to do that to my own kids and I would never want to put that them in that situation ever. And it's like an ugly feeling. It's like a, [14:23] it's something that's not nice it's not very it doesn't come from a good place and i can feel that when i'm thinking that thought but it also feels true and [14:33] Also, I'm like, I'm sure my dad thought that too. I'm sure he would never wanted that. I wanted this either. And so it's just like, it's scarcity. It's a lack of... [14:44] generosity for me or love or something and [14:48] It's all there and it sucks. [14:52] Yeah. [14:52] Okay. [14:54] I think that it is... [14:57] in the situation that you're in. [14:59] to not feel a sense of, "Couldn't you have done it a little differently?" [15:03] And that feeling really [15:07] hard to manage against [15:10] someone needing you more than ever. Yeah. [15:13] and being like, oh my gosh, I'm feeling a real sense of need from this person and a responsibility. And anytime you have to do something out of a duty, even if you want to do it, [15:25] it has a weird relationship. You have a weird relationship to it because you're like, I don't have a choice here. And yeah, [15:30] when you don't have a choice, it just takes away [15:33] the joy of opting into something. [15:36] And then on top of that, there are like legitimate financial realities of...

[15:41] having a startup that we've talked about constantly on this podcast and there's that in concept [15:48] And then there's that in reality where it's like, no, my dad is sick. And what does that mean for my business? It puts all of these things in reality. [15:56] to a new light and it either makes them feel silly or makes them feel more important or whatever just yeah [16:02] colors everything. And I think that you have done a really amazing job managing it. And I think that you have shown up every day in a time where you could have [16:13] completely been like [16:14] I just can't know today. And I think that you should feel really good about that. I think that's because I'm a workaholic. Well, I mean. It's true. I think it's like totally compartmentalized. Okay, that might be true. But I will say I have seen. [16:34] you show up. [16:35] for your family. [16:37] In the same way. [16:38] Like I see you show up for your kids. [16:40] I see you show up for your dad and your mom. I see you taking the calls when it's not easy and it's really unfun. And when you don't want to do it. [16:48] which is like an honest feeling. [16:49] And so, yes, you might be a workaholic and you might also be on the daily standup while the call comes in. [16:57] I see you doing it. I appreciate that. I appreciate it. I feel seen by you for sure. I appreciate that. And I just want you to know you're having a tough time. It is been a, [17:09] It's been a when it rains, it pours kind of moment in the Burke household.

[17:13] Yeah. [17:14] I think anybody in your situation would be feeling squeezed. [17:17] Majorly squeezed. [17:18] Yeah. [17:19] And I'm curious how, when you talk about, I don't want to do this to my kids, does that [17:24] make you reevaluate. [17:26] anything? Are you just like, I need to go work at Coinbase now? Or like, I need to take some of my Bitcoin that's sitting on my ledger and put it in like a S&P 500 or something. That's an interesting question. I think that [17:40] There is certainly some day-to-day stuff that comes up. [17:45] But it's more when I have that thought about [17:48] my kids specifically, it's more around like [17:51] Planning for the future like a college fund or retirement like a retirement fund. I don't know a retirement fund I don't I have [17:58] my Bitcoin [18:00] Yeah, it's my retirement fund. And I believe in that and I am diversified somewhat in that. But yeah, it's more just like making sure that when I'm in my 70s, I put something in place so that I'm not draining on on their lives. [18:16] lives yeah yeah and resources and i guess that's like retirement planning [18:21] I don't ever really plan to retire, but like, [18:24] whatever it looks like and honestly the world will be so different in however 30 years i i can't even imagine really [18:32] I feel like it's going to be a completely different world. [18:35] It feels impossible to plan for. Yeah, but I don't know. I mean, I have made dramatically different decisions than my parents as a result of growing up always with having no money. And so it's not a huge shocker that my dad doesn't have any money. Now we didn't have money when I was growing up. And as a result, I was like, I never want to have that life. And so I'm not going to be a musician like you guys are. I'm going to go do

[18:56] something else and make money and that's always been a really big motivator for me and so I think I won't be in that position because I've made decisions differently and [19:03] intentionally as a result of living with those two people. But it's still like it's right there. And I guess that's part of it is that that is a big part of [19:13] what I like a big part of the chip on my shoulder. [19:15] with [19:16] with my parents is around that. Do you feel resentment being in this industry? I feel this sometimes. [19:23] That's what I was saying. Like... [19:25] I look around and... [19:29] there's a lot of people with a lot of money. And it's happened mostly accidentally. [19:35] Like some people have worked really hard for it and, [19:38] That's very cool. [19:40] And... [19:41] I respect those people a lot, and they're the people who I, when I come into some money, I'm going to call and say, [19:47] How do I make this 10 times bigger? Totally. But I have... [19:52] If I'm being honest, there's these moments where I feel jealousy [19:56] And... [19:57] A little bit of anger. [19:59] towards people that like have fallen ass backwards into [20:03] generational wealth yeah how do you deal with that um i talk about it on this podcast i don't like myself i don't like that [20:13] I don't want to be that way. I want to be someone who can be happy for somebody when they have something I don't have that I want. And I grew up like very squarely middle class, but I imagine that if I grew up [20:23] with scarcity, where it was like, you're aware that you don't have money and you're thinking about it as a kid. That feeling would be

[20:31] wait 10x [20:33] being around people who have a lot of money. Has that been your experience? It hasn't really been. [20:38] been in crypto i think more than anything because it's like it does feel like so much of it is accidental [20:45] Mm-hmm. [20:46] and like luck based. [20:48] and feels not [20:51] dissimilar to like winning a bunch of money while gambling and [20:55] I think that doesn't really get to me. I think with the stuff that gets to me is more like people who I'm jealous of like people who have brought a market fit. [21:04] You know, like that's that's where my that's where I have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jealousy and also admiration. It's all like wrapped up into one and like. [21:11] Mm-hmm. [21:12] respect. [21:13] But I think something that feels [21:16] Like that level, that's really more where my jealousy points rather than the crypto wealth just because it's like so… [21:25] Dom and also you see it being spent [21:28] I'm like, these people don't have... [21:29] Vanguard accounts. [21:31] right you know yeah yeah i might maybe i need a money therapist i do think right now in your season of life if i had one recommendation to you [21:41] with how to maximize the [21:44] limited time that you have for self-care. [21:47] Therapy. [21:48] a therapist is a good idea i just like don't really know where to start how to find one [21:52] I know, it's very hard. [21:54] I can ask mine. She's so great. But like, did you go through your insurance? You pay out of pocket? I pay out of pocket. I pay out of pocket and it's very expensive.

[22:02] Yeah. But it's like we're on a razor's edge with my mental health these days. So it's the best money I could be spending. [22:10] Okay, on that note. All right, thanks for listening. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. I appreciate you. I appreciate people who listen. I appreciate you too. Bye. [22:21] It's time for a more open, inclusive, and transparent financial system. A system that serves nearly everyone, everywhere, all the time. That's why we love today's sponsor, Kraken. Kraken is a crypto platform that provides a super simple on-ramp to the world of crypto with a 24-7 support team. Crypto transcends physical and imaginary borders. No matter where you are, you can send funds easily and quickly to almost any part of the world. Plus, forget about waiting times and waiting lines. You can send, receive, and trade crypto anywhere near instantly. [22:51] B at kraken.com backslash boys club, not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss and is offered to us customers through payward interactive Inc. No third-party transfers available.