The Secret to Building Sticky AI Products - Ep. 42 with Chris Pedregal

[00:00] My product philosophy is I think you need to make product decisions based on your own intuition. Because intuition is like a hard thing. Like some intuitions are bad, some intuitions are good. Like what does it feel like to you? I basically think you can look at products and you can kind of tell whether they have soul or not. I've tried to find a better word for it, but soul is like the best one I've found. And when you're building a product, you should absolutely, absolutely react to what people are saying. If you don't have an opinion or perspective, then it's kind of empty, right? [00:30] of that thing. Whereas some products you can kind of tell if they have soul and you can also tell they lose it. [00:47] Chris, welcome to the show. Hey, Dan. Thanks so much for having me. [00:51] Really glad to have you on the show. So for people who don't know, you are the co-founder and CEO of Granola, which is actually one of my favorite pieces of AI software. Whenever people ask me, like, [01:03] What is the like who's doing it right in the AI consumer business product world? I'm like Grinnell is like one of the first things that comes up. I use it for pretty much all my meetings. So basically it just like sits in the background of my computer. It doesn't like join Zoom or it isn't like the Fireflies bot, which I find to be the most annoying thing in the world. And it just records everything and then it turns it into a transcript and and then has some like automated notes, which is really cool. But one of my favorite features.

[01:33] is you've got this thing where I can send [01:36] the chat, I can send the transcript to someone else or the granola meeting to someone else, and then they can ask questions of it because like, [01:44] you know, we're operating at a scale now inside of everywhere. I can't be in every meeting, other people can't be in every meeting. But there's always questions about like, what did this person say? What did that person say? And just like being like, don't bother me with the questions. Here's the whole thing. You can ask questions of the actual transcript is like really nice. So long winded way of saying I think you're doing awesome stuff. And I'm really excited to have you on the show. [02:04] Thanks so much, Dan. And you've been giving us feedback for a while, which I appreciated from day one. So thanks so much. That's great. And you just raised a huge round. So 20 million bucks. Tell me, like, where are you right now in the business? What's going on? What's in your mind? [02:19] I mean, we're honestly super early. We were... [02:22] So Granola launched in May. We were a team of four when it launched and we... [02:30] We ended up signing a term sheet not that long after launch. [02:34] I guess it's helpful if you build a product that a lot of VCs use because they can actually, you know, it becomes less of an analytic exercise where it's actually they can use the product and see if it's like a useful thing. So we're super early. We're still very, very much focused on the product, on growing it. [02:52] we seem like we have [02:54] We definitely seem to have struck a nerve for some users like yourself, like the early adopters. And I just think we need to grow from there. [03:01] Who are the people that you think it strikes a nerve with? Like, what are the characteristics of those kinds of people?

[03:09] Yeah. [03:10] So it's... [03:14] I think there's two ways to answer that. In terms of... [03:17] job title. It's a lot of founders. [03:21] like startup founders specifically, both small startups and big startups. [03:25] and a lot of investors right now. [03:28] And I'd say it's [03:31] people for whom they need to make high leverage decisions on the backs of meetings. [03:38] And... [03:39] really care about the quality of their like gentlement. [03:42] and [03:43] Yeah, maybe. [03:44] Pause there. [03:46] That's really interesting. And [03:48] And one of the things I'm really curious to dig in with you is you raised you raised a big round. You said you built the first version with like a very small team. I assume the team is still fairly small. [04:00] Tell me about that decision because I'll just like lay my cards on the table. One of the things [04:05] I've been playing with is like you can get a lot more done in AI land with like much less money in a much smaller team. And I think for me, just like as a personality like that, I like that because I haven't really wanted to raise a lot of money. We've raised a little bit of money for everybody, but not a lot. And we're incubating these products and we're kind of like seeing how far we can get with only a little bit of money. And I'm always interested in the total opposite perspective. So like tell me about that decision and how you think about building a company in this environment. [04:35] Yeah, great question. So my normal, I'd say my natural tendencies are similar to yours, right? Which is small team, don't raise too much money.

[04:44] Um, [04:46] We found ourselves in an interesting place [04:49] space. So, [04:50] Thank you. [04:51] AI is kind of nuts for a few reasons. One is... [04:55] um, [04:55] It's quite expensive to run. [04:58] a lot of these products today. [05:00] but it won't be expensive to run them in two years. [05:03] But in two years, the leaders and winners will already be defined. [05:08] So there's this middle period here where it's like, [05:12] um, [05:13] you're going to be running expensive products that will not be so expensive to run in the future, but you need to make it through that period. [05:20] Um, [05:21] The other one is just, it's such... [05:23] There's so much volatility. It's really hard to predict the future. [05:27] things are moving really quickly [05:29] Um, [05:30] And we had an opportunity to raise... [05:34] capital and we decided to take it basically to protect ourselves against [05:38] uh, [05:39] those like that that volatility or like we we don't know what the world's going to look like 12 months from now 18 months from now and we otherwise would need to raise again um [05:48] Also, it's like... [05:49] Like I said, it's early, but I do think Granola kind of struck a nerve. So I do think we have the opportunity to scale the user base pretty quickly, which will involve... [05:58] involved money. [06:00] That makes sense. And how do you think about, you know, there's this double-edged sword. We actually think have this too at every, because we always build products that we kind of want ourselves. And there's a double-edged sword to that because like you can get immediate adoption with the like founder VC crowd, but then expanding beyond that is like,

[06:20] It's tricky. You know, it's like, I think a good comp is like maybe Superhuman, where I think they were like the hot, [06:27] SaaS thing for like any VC or any founder to use for a while. And I think they've had some success breaking into the enterprise, but it's certainly taken a long time. Yeah. How do you think about moving from the cohort of people that seem to love this today to like whatever the next step is? [06:47] Yeah, that's a great question. I think there are two parts there. I think what you want to be careful of... [06:54] I don't have all the right answers. I'll just tell you what I think, right, and what we're trying to do. That's what we're doing here. No, no one has all the answers. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool. Proceed at your own risks. I feel like the real danger is to get pigeonholed in a vertical that you don't want to get pigeonholed in. [07:11] Right. So it's interesting. It's like building products for VCs is, is notoriously like a bad signal because for investors, they say the TAM is so small, right? They're like, sure. They, um, [07:24] I willingness to spend, but there aren't that many of them. So, you know, you can't build a really big, big business there. So I think it's, [07:30] I think it's really important [07:32] that [07:33] you protect against that. So if you don't want to build a product for a specific vertical, make sure you diversify your user base early so you get signals. Otherwise, if you go too far down that path too early, it'll be really hard to switch. [07:46] I think... [07:47] The focusing on early adopters.

[07:51] I think you can do that for a while. [07:54] Because two things will happen. I think one, if you get early adopters to really love you, [07:59] they will evangelize you. [08:01] to their friends and their teams. And I also think there is... [08:07] with some of these tools that just might be like a changing of the guard. Like I remember when Notion came out, right? And [08:13] It's not like big companies were switching to Notion. I think what happened is that they got all the startups, all the scale-ups using it, and some of those companies have become really, really big, and then over time they've become established, it's easier to get companies to switch. But I don't think you need to... [08:27] I think it would be a mistake to try to go after [08:31] like a like a mass market product too early because you you lose what makes you special if you if you do that. [08:37] that makes total sense I totally agree with that I'm wondering like the place where my mind goes I just think you're such a [08:46] great product thinker. [08:48] um and the reason i can tell is because like you manage to make an ai product that's like not just the shiny bells and whistles thing it's like actually useful it's a useful product that includes ai and it also sort of it's not like a bolt-on like it does something that would only uniquely be possible in the ai world but it's not like this weird hypey demo that you use once and then you just never look at again so like how did you think about making those decisions how did you get into granola and how do you think about the initial product decisions [09:16] Yeah, I guess the short answer is that it took a while. We launched in May and I think we've gotten a lot of attention since launch, but we've been working on it for a year before then.

[09:31] And, um, [09:33] We basically had a version of granola for a year. We had about 100, 150 people using it and giving us tons of feedback. [09:40] I can't remember. You might have been one of them. I actually can't remember if you were in that beta group or maybe you started using it after launch. I don't think so. I think I tweeted you and then you didn't respond. And I was like, fuck this guy. [09:54] It sounds like me. I'm not great at social media. [09:58] All right. So if you weren't part of the original 150, I guess like a few things. One is... [10:04] Thank you. [10:04] We... [10:06] It took us a really long time to figure out what the core interaction would be in granola. So the core interaction right now is basically granola looks like Apple Notes. For those who haven't used it, it looks like Apple Notes during the meeting. [10:17] You type into it like a normal text editor. [10:19] It's transcribing real time. It's listening to the conversation. And then the moment the meeting ends, [10:24] you kind of see this bar go down and it transforms your notes into like really nice notes. It flushes stuff out. It adds points you didn't write down. Um, [10:33] It took us a long time to get to that. That's not at all what we thought the product was going to look like at the beginning. [10:38] The corner action was... [10:39] real time during the meeting, you'd be invoking the AI and typing keywords and be writing. [10:45] writing notes. And, um, [10:48] That interface, that interaction was really cool. Like it looked cool. It made for a great demo. Like it made it look completely different to anything that came before it. [10:58] it just turned out to be really distracting in actual meetings, right? Because what would happen is if you were in any kind of AI augmentation that happens real time,

[11:08] you can't help but read what the AI is writing. [11:11] And if it doesn't get it exactly right, then you can't help but want to fix it. And then you realize you've stopped paying attention to the person you're talking to. So... [11:19] We actually took us a long time is the short of it. Like we went through a few different interaction paradigms. [11:26] until we finally settled on the one that's in granola now. [11:31] And once we did that, we cut out like 50% of the features we had built. [11:35] not because they aren't stuff we'll build one day, just because [11:39] They weren't good enough. But like, you know, this with AI, it's very, very easy to build a demo version of a feature, right? Like the happy path. [11:48] But it's actually still a lot of work to build a great feature that works consistently and reliably and that people love. [11:56] That was a big part of it, I think, is we cut out a lot of the stuff that didn't work and we just tried to do one thing really well. [12:01] which [12:02] is [12:04] It's hard in AI. It takes a good amount of discipline, right? Because you can do so much so easily. [12:09] Yeah. I guess the thing that I imagine people are wondering, and I'm sort of wondering it too, is, okay, so you had like the original thing and it's like doing the real-time transcription, which is like a really cool like wow thing. And then you did a bunch of iterations and you realized that this much simpler interaction pattern that's like maybe a slightly less of a wow, especially while you're in the meeting, it like turns into a wow at the end. What's really funny

[12:39] use it that way at all. I don't ever take notes in it. Sorry. I just record and then [12:45] get the [12:46] get the notes. So it's really interesting that, and I think that actually is getting to my question, which is like, [12:54] um, [12:56] I think a lot of people, myself included, but I think I've gotten a little better over time. A lot of people are like, okay, but how do you know who to listen to? How are you getting that feedback and then sorting through it, right? Like, you know, you have that UI, you have that user interaction, right? [13:13] And when you say it's distracting, like, are you paying attention to yourself using it? Are you, you know, just watching lots of different users and like listening to some group of them? Because I imagine there's some group of people that really maybe liked the distraction. I don't know. I'm just making stuff up. So like. [13:29] How are you like sorting through all that stuff? [13:32] I guess my... [13:33] It's hard. I don't know if you get it perfectly right. My product philosophy is [13:39] Um, [13:42] I think you need to make product decisions based on your own intuition. [13:47] and you want to [13:50] inform or give your intuition as much of the relevant context as possible. [13:55] So to me, it's less about, okay, you... [13:58] you talk to a user and you write down exactly what they say, right? And then you go and do exactly what they say. I think we're lucky with Granola where we actually use Granola ourselves, right? [14:08] we don't have the same experiences like an investor would or

[14:12] let's say like a salesperson directly, but we do do sales calls. So, you know, we can kind of empathize there. [14:17] Um, [14:18] I think the most important thing is basically to build your internal mental... [14:23] intuition model of like what feels good or bad um and then the best way to do that is to get [14:30] I find FaceTime with users. Written feedback is like, it's a data point, but I think it's when you talk to the human, and you can kind of see the human in their full context, that it becomes a lot easier. [14:43] what's worked best for us, and it's harder as you scale, [14:46] is to have... [14:48] a few people you talk to a lot. And we do that basically with over chat, sorry, over Slack, and then with periodic chat, [14:57] calls like this, [14:59] Ideally, you go into their office and shadow them for a day, which is logistically really hard to pull off. But whenever we've done it, it's been super valuable. [15:08] Yeah. [15:09] I love this. [15:11] I, I, [15:12] So, I mean, I think you're saying like there isn't like some list of rules or set of processes. There is like some data gathering, but ultimately like it's about having a perspective and that perspective or that sense of taste is like. [15:25] um, [15:27] it's implicit rather than explicit. And it's sort of like about trusting, trusting that to some degree and informing it and having it evolve over time. Like so. [15:36] What does that feel like? Like, what does it feel like when you're [15:42] when you're making a decision and you're letting the because intuition is like a hard thing like some some intuitions are bad some intuitions are good like what does it feel like to you like when you're kind of aligned and you kind of

[15:54] you're getting into the intuition of like, this is what I want to do. [15:58] Um, so... [16:02] I do think there's like an anger. This is just sound generic, but it's like, [16:07] like, [16:08] deep down, you need to believe in something. Like you need to be like, okay. And it's easiest when you're building for yourself. Cause you can be like, okay, this, this is what I want, or this is what feels right to me. And I think, um, [16:19] That should always be there, that anchoring, because otherwise there are lots of products you could build in the world, right? The one that you're anchored on is the one that you care about. What I find... [16:29] So there's another school of thought, which is like, you know, [16:31] Don't even talk to users, just pure design. Just follow your truth. [16:37] I don't subscribe to that. And the reason I don't subscribe to that is because it is... [16:43] unfathomingly hard to put yourself in another person's shoes. [16:47] Right. If you try to do it in an abstract way. [16:50] you're like, okay, what does this person think or feel? And I think [16:54] Perhaps anyone who's been in a marriage or a long-term relationship like that can attest to that, which is like, it doesn't matter how well you know the person, it's so freaking hard to put yourself in someone else's shoes. [17:05] what, [17:06] What I find... [17:08] is that when [17:10] like I love user tests. I love putting a piece of, or like a feature in front of users and seeing how they react. And like, [17:15] Usually, it's not like... [17:18] It's not the small things that you notice along the way. Usually very quickly you're like, [17:24] "Oh yeah, my mental model was right," or "It's completely wrong." And you feel that very quickly. There are lots of different people out there. People have different preferences, so there's a lot of noise. But usually you're like, "Oh,

[17:35] oh, I had this implicit assumption I didn't realize I had, and that thing is wrong, and therefore everything downstream is going to be a piece of crap. Or like, okay, it maybe didn't hit exactly the bar, but it's generally there. [17:47] We're getting there. Yeah. Yeah. I, I mean, I, I really agree with that. Um, I mean, I do think you can make products for people that are not like you and sometimes that's necessary, but like there's something about, um, [18:01] that like kind of get out of the building mindset that, um, [18:05] I think [18:07] I think people miss or people like misunderstand or misapply which is like and I've done this too like [18:14] there's that whole like over the last 10 years it's like the lean startup and like you want to treat business like a science or whatever and so you want to like [18:22] objectively study your users and your customers and sort of like find out like what are their needs and what are their problems so you can solve them or whatever. [18:32] And I think what people don't realize about that is if you go in without a perspective, [18:37] Um, [18:38] you evoke that lack of perspective in the other person. They don't have the answers. They don't know what their problems are. And to some degree, in your mutual interaction, you are creating the world that potentially has a problem or doesn't have a problem. And there is some reality there, but you have to evoke it in the right way. And so when you come in with a product or a specific perspective,

[19:08] or sort of training that intuition versus like going in with just like, so like... [19:14] what kind of product do you want? Or like, what problems do you have or whatever? Like, you just are going to get blankness because you're presenting blankness. And that's like a very subtle distinction that I think is really interesting. [19:24] Yeah, I guess that made me think of two things. One, in my last startup, Socratic, we were building for high schoolers, teenagers, right? Which... [19:33] Um, [19:35] I mean, this is a little while ago, but they're completely different for me. Right. So I couldn't trust a lot of my, like my intuition to what I would want to do is as a user. And what made a, it took us a while to figure this out, but what made a huge difference. [19:48] was after, I don't know, maybe two years, we figured this out. On Tuesdays and Thursdays, we were building this startup in New York. So on Tuesdays and Thursdays, [19:56] we would have high school kids come into the office and spend time with us. [20:00] And on Tuesdays, it was the same group of kids so that we would get to know them and they would trust us and... [20:06] teenagers have been trained to tell [20:09] adults what they want to hear from like an early age. So it took a while to break through that before they're kind of honest. And then on Thursdays, it was a new group of kids who had never seen the product before. And getting that kind of FaceTime [20:23] week in week out made it made a tremendous difference because there was constantly like, I can't trust what I want, right? They've grown up with a very different technology. They've grown up with very different cultural norms. Like what, how does that work for them? [20:36] And then the second thing that made me think of is, this is like a weird terminology, but

[20:42] You're talking about if you come in with that perspective or not. [20:45] I basically think you can look at products and you... [20:48] you can kind of tell whether they have soul or not. [20:52] I've tried to find a better word for it, but soul is like the best one I've found. And I think if it's... [20:57] When you're building a product, you should absolutely, absolutely react to what people are saying. But if you don't have an opinion or a perspective, then it's kind of empty, right? It's like whatever they say, you'll just run after that thing. Whereas some products, you can kind of tell if they have soul and you can also tell when they lose it over time. Oftentimes organizations... [21:18] will scale or grow and something that really captured in essence, but gets distilled until it's not really there anymore. But I think that's a good test. You can kind of look at most products and be like, is there like a human element at the core of this that feels... [21:32] coherent. [21:34] What is a product in your head that has soul? [21:36] Well, maybe it's because I was just talking about Socratic, but... [21:40] This was in like 2015 and we were talking to teenagers. [21:45] And at that time, Snapchat [21:47] felt like [21:49] It was full of it. [21:50] you know, full of soul. Like you could tell it had like a real perspective. It really [21:54] There was a lot there that was... [21:57] You don't focus group your way to Snapchat. [22:01] It felt very teenage native at that time. [22:07] And is that like the original Snapchat where it's like mostly the like disappearing pictures or were there other parts of it that like they'd added on at that point? I just don't remember like where in its evolution it was at that point. Yeah, it was just like, honestly, the whole the whole interface was so different. Like everything was and.

[22:23] Um, [22:23] There are disappearing pictures, stories were out. There are these kind of what felt like [22:29] to me, like canonical new... [22:32] types of media that they had come up with. But if you looked at it, because I had to look at it really closely because I was designing for teenagers, and that was where, at that point, Snapchat was dominant and a lot of the interaction patterns that teenagers expected came from Snapchat. But if you looked at it very carefully, it was thoughtful. It was the fastest way to take a photo and share it, right? Or the fastest way to go through lots of photos. [22:55] Um, [22:56] But for older users, they'd try to use Snapchat and they'd be like, I can't figure this thing out. It's too confusing. It's too different. [23:04] yeah that makes sense i want to i want to go back to and i'm sorry you can tell me to stop [23:09] asking you about how you feel, but, uh, but I'm just, I'm just, I'm really just on this like intuition thing right now. You're like, you're really speaking my language. So I'm, I'm going to just keep. [23:19] pushing on it until you tell me to stop but like I think for me [23:23] One of the interesting things about [23:26] intuition, [23:28] Because I was definitely on a very like... [23:31] more rationalist, like more like finding rules, doing science kind of like path. And I think if you go down that path and you are really serious about it, you realize that underneath [23:42] Like, [23:42] any scientific advance is typically like a lot of creative intuition and a lot of stuff that's inexplicit. And just that's a sort of necessary thing. [23:52] so I think for me one of the things that has been really interesting as I've kind of grown in building products is learning to recognize the feeling that I get when I'm like

[24:06] paying attention to like other people and other how other people feel or what other people expect or what I think I should be feeling versus like [24:14] what I actually feel [24:16] And when that's happening versus when that's when it's sort of out there versus like when I'm too confused and I'm like, there's too much signal and I'm just like, oh. [24:25] I'm a mess, basically. [24:28] And there's something... [24:32] It's a sort of like, I think when we talk about like knowledge, [24:37] in the West, like you're pretty much talking about, um, like sort of scientific knowledge. And this is like a sort of different type of knowledge that we don't really talk about too much. Um, and I'm trying to explore for people, for people who are like, I think like you, I mean, you're talking about soul and products and intuition or whatever. I think you have something there that, um, [24:58] we don't talk about enough. So, yeah, I'm wondering, does this experience resonate with you? Or, like, how does it feel for you? Or, you know, what is that for you? Yeah, I think... [25:07] I think... [25:10] What's that made me think of something that's really challenging is that you need space for it. [25:16] Right. It's not something you can kind of look at. I mean, you, perhaps it's not that different from writing. I don't know. Right. Where it's a, it's a creative act, but you need to focus. I think it's, um, [25:25] a hard thing about a product is that you get busy. [25:28] Right. And when you get busy, you actually, you lose the space to actually do product thinking. And we can kind of talk about what I think product thinking is a lot of the time, but, um,

[25:38] Like I remember at some point I was looking at Google PMs [25:42] In Google PMs, [25:44] where their schedules were... [25:46] after the meetings, like from start of the day to the end of the day. And I was like, you literally have designed an org [25:51] where there is zero time for actual product thought, right? And there are different types of roles, right? Like project management, that is like, you're pushing stuff forward. No, you need to do that. But I think a lot of the product thought that, [26:04] that where you come out with something good you you kind of need to get at that space and [26:08] Yeah, that's one point. [26:11] It's interesting what you're saying about listening to yourself or noticing when you're [26:14] listening to what you feel or what other people are thinking. [26:16] um, [26:18] It's not always easy to do this, but... [26:21] I find that a lot of product is actually very simple. Like what you're really trying to do is say... [26:27] How did this make me feel? [26:30] And a lot of that subconscious, or it happens so quickly that [26:33] You almost have to replay the video in slow motion to see what's actually happening. You have to replay the emotions. Because I look at something, I'll be like, I feel something, why? And then... [26:45] and going back and figuring that out. And then [26:48] asking the question to other people, right? [26:51] What does this make you feel when you see it? And again, people aren't always going to, it's not always going to be easy for them to talk about it. But I think that's. [26:57] At the end of the day, that's a lot of what building great products about. It's just hard to get to the answers of that. But if you can... [27:04] Yeah, yeah. [27:05] I totally agree with you. And I totally agree with about the time thing. And it's not just about time in your schedule. Like you can have no meetings for a couple hours, but it's also about like emotional time or emotional space. Like if you're just like so stressed about like the 50 things you have to do, like.

[27:22] even if you have a couple hours, like you're not going to have the [27:24] the time to like really... [27:26] figure out how you feel about something. For me, like, [27:31] I have kind of [27:32] over the I mean, I've been running every for five years. So like over the last year or two, I have like started to like really just be very, um, [27:40] mindful of my schedule, like I really try not to do meetings before noon, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. And and I also like I'm lucky enough, like I have a lot of people on my team who are doing a lot of the like more day to day stuff. So I have time to do stuff like this where I can kind of like let my mind roam, which is really amazing. You're kind of like in the very you're in the belly of the beast right now. And I'm curious, like how you're. [28:06] how you're doing that for yourself, like how you... [28:09] think about if, as you're saying, like this kind of intuitive thinking is so important or feeling is so important, but you can't do it if you're too busy, but also you're running a startup and like startups are fucking crazy. Like, how are you doing that? [28:21] Poorly. Poorly at the moment. [28:25] Is the answer. I think... [28:28] I guess where my, where I'm thinking is now and, uh, you might have checking in a couple months. It might be totally different. I think, um, [28:36] different companies are going to win off of the different strengths. Right. And I think, um, [28:42] I think for Granola... [28:43] There's a lot of things we're going to have to do right. [28:46] to be successful, right? But I guarantee that if we... [28:51] mess up the product, right? If we mess up that soul, then we definitely won't be successful. So I do think it's a, it's a big priority. And, and, um,

[28:59] We definitely got [29:01] more attention after our launch than we expected. So I think we've been playing some catch up there. And now I'm actively and trying to be really thoughtful about hiring [29:10] hiring the right folks. [29:13] So that I can, I can have that space to do product and a bunch of other things as well. But, um, a bit inspired, actually, we, we talked to a couple of months ago and you told me about how you've, [29:24] done a really good job hiring different, you know, different people can own different areas. And I, I heard that and I was like, that sounds amazing. I mean, I have to try to try to replicate that. [29:33] I love that. Hopefully I can, it took me like five years to do that. So hopefully it saves you a little bit, a little bit of time. [29:43] Yeah, no, I think, I think that that makes a lot of sense. Another thing, [29:47] on the sort of intuition point, like there's the, there's the part of intuition where you're sort of training on the current, [29:53] project that you're on so it's like how are people liking granola or not liking it or whatever but then there's also just like being a fan of different things and like really kind of like in your day-to-day life like just loving this particular kind of thing and like getting deep into how it works and like all that kind of stuff like what are some things that you love um that have kind of informed that intuitive side of uh how you make decisions and how you build products um [30:18] Interesting. [30:19] Product-wise or just generally? [30:22] I mean, whatever, wherever you want to go with this is totally fine. Whatever is exciting to you. [30:26] Like, let's say there's like... [30:28] I try to be a good dad, right? I try to be a good...

[30:31] partner, husband, and I try to be a good CEO. And I think I can be [30:35] two of those three at any given time. [30:38] Like, I don't think I can be a great all three. And I think the trick is to rotate it. [30:43] Right? Because I think if you stay too long with the same two, then that third one gets in trouble. Right? And I think that's the sad reality. I don't know. It's like a... [30:51] startups startups take a lot and um i wouldn't have it any other way i've had other jobs and i'm not happy in those um so they're the right trade-off for me but um [30:59] They do take a lot. And I think one of the, in terms of the things that I love, [31:04] a lot of, I think, interests I had when I was younger. I've kind of given up or found, maybe I'll pick it up one day in the future. The things that have stuck around, I guess, are... [31:15] Uh, [31:17] I just love travel. Travel is a really big one for me. And just being in a... [31:23] being in a different, like changing environment, I just find to be really, really helpful. The other thing I do [31:30] which, uh, [31:32] I don't know, when I was younger. I thought it sounded super weird, but maybe my friends have gotten weirder over time, so now I think it's more normal. Or maybe because I'm so busy now that it's more necessary. I will go off by myself periodically. Every birthday. [31:47] Like the day before my birthday, I'd go off somewhere super remote where there's like no one around and just like be stuck in my thoughts. And I think it's kind of one of these... [31:57] One of these reactions to [31:59] the day-to-day can get so hectic and you can get so reactive. And I think you periodically need to break that cycle.

[32:07] and zoom out and feel small. [32:09] It's like I do this pilgrimage. I just go to like Big Sur. [32:11] I don't know if you've been there, Dan, but it's like a place that's like, [32:15] Oh, man, it's one of those places. Everything about it is just almost like if you want to feel small and insignificant, it's like that place. It's like huge cliffs, the ocean, you know, stars, redwoods. It just makes you feel like you're like this tiny little speck, which is like, I think, a really helpful perspective to get periodically. [32:34] I love that. I mean, first of all, I think, um, [32:37] that's one of the most emo things anyone's ever said on this podcast. [32:44] Um, but also, um, [32:48] I feel the same way. And one thing that I like, I've not done that on my birthday, but I'm Jewish and... [32:56] uh, [32:57] we have a holiday called Yom Kippur. I don't know if you're Jewish or not. Um, but, um, [33:03] basically you like, it's the day of atonement. So, you know, you're, you're supposed to reflect on all your sins and repent basically. And you fast and I will often like, and you're supposed to go to synagogue, but I don't really do that. Um, and I just like, [33:18] sit by myself, I turn, try to turn my phone off and just [33:23] um, [33:24] I have a notebook there and I'm just like thinking about my year and, you know, you know, like things that I didn't do or did wrong or people I heard or whatever, but just more generally, like it's, it's sort of a way to step back. And it's also, it's really interesting to like,

[33:40] do that because you're fasting and that gives you a little bit more mental clarity which is interesting but also like [33:48] Thank you. [33:49] you walk by restaurants and people are eating and you're like, I can't eat. And that puts you in a totally different place than normal. And there's a lot of people who feel that way all the time. And so like you, you're kind of like, [34:00] You're getting like a very, very slight taste of that. Anyway, it just you just get into this completely different frame. And I always find that I [34:09] feel different after that. So I totally, I totally resonate with that. [34:13] Cool. Let's move on before I say more emo stuff. [34:18] No, I want the email stuff, but that makes sense. We can talk about travel too. [34:29] what do you think it is like about those experiences that informs your taste or like kind of scratches that itch or like what have you taken away from those experiences or maybe tell me about one in particular that stands out to you [34:44] Yeah. [34:45] It's interesting. [34:48] You know, you can try to talk about travel opens your horizons and, like, makes you more aware of the human condition. And, you know, you can build products better because of that. But, like, just, like, an emotional reaction. It's not... I don't think it's, like... [35:01] an intellectual one. It's just [35:04] um, [35:05] being in different places, [35:07] I think it's all about just that, breaking that. [35:10] Like the routine, routine's great, right? Routine's how you get stuff done, right? There's something really nice about it, but I think it's also...

[35:18] Time goes by really quickly. [35:21] when you're in a routine. It's almost [35:23] And that's kind of the beauty of it because you don't notice all the details because your brain has already ingested all the details and kind of like, [35:31] it cancels that out so you can just focus on the thing in front of you. And I think when you're traveling, [35:35] all those details kind of rush in and that that breaks you out of your mold and that that gives you perspective but for me it's just like I love it I just just one of those things where I'm not I don't know I think I think most people know whether you're [35:48] Travel is... [35:49] like a core thing for them or not from an early age. So a lot of people who aren't, you know, [35:54] Oh. [35:56] tempted to or if you're interested in like seeing a lot of the world when they're kids and there are others that they know that from an early age it's I don't know maybe it's like a [36:04] Maybe it's like a human... [36:06] like a core human type or something. Yeah. [36:08] Yeah, I think there's some personality type system that... [36:16] includes people it's sort of it's like neurotransmitter based and who knows if it's actually like scientific or whatever but that's not the point and people it hypothesizes that people that have a little bit more dopamine forward leaning. [36:31] brains just like travel. They're called and the system is called explorers. [36:38] What's dopamine forward? Like, they're dopamine trigger happy? Yeah, like, if you had to pick a... [36:46] a neurotransmitter that's like more dominant. So like dopamine versus serotonin versus like, I can't remember what the other ones were, um, probably norepinephrine. And like one other one, if you had to pick one, um,

[36:58] traveler people are more dopamine um who knows if it's real but what you said like reminded me of um [37:07] like this routine versus travel, which always reminds me a little bit of, um, [37:12] Thank you. [37:13] uh, [37:14] In computer science, there's like this tradeoff in algorithms between exploring and exploiting. [37:21] and I think that that's reflected also in just like [37:27] creative lives which is like sometimes you're in explore mode sometimes you're in exploit mode same thing in companies like sometimes you're in explore mode before product market fit and then you're in exploit mode when you're in product market fit um and for me i i often just think of it like um breathing in versus breathing out um so like breathing in is is explore and breathing out is um exploit and um and knowing where you are as a person in your life in your week because [37:57] like it's fractal on different levels and knowing where you are as a person and as a, um, [38:02] as a as a company or in your product, I think is like really important because you're often like, [38:09] in [38:10] For example, like you're in explore mode, but then you're looking at other people who are in exploit mode and you're like, I should be doing that. And it's like, no, you absolutely should not be doing that. That doesn't work. So that's what it brought up for me. [38:21] Hmm. [38:22] I love that. I think what you said about knowing in which mode you are and being

[38:29] and [38:31] Uh, yeah. [38:33] prescriptive about that, I think is so important because they're completely different. [38:38] you approach those two worlds very, very differently, right? And if you approach... [38:42] if you approach an explore task with an exploit mindset, I mean, you're going to [38:47] you're going to discover some really crappy stuff. [38:52] Yeah. [38:53] Yeah, and I think that's why like, you know, after you sell your company, it's often hard for entrepreneurs because you're like, I'm used to the exploit mode and like sport mode only happens like once every, you know, couple years or whatever. So you just have to like put yourself back together. And that's, that's kind of hard. Um, [39:09] Uh, [39:10] Okay, how... [39:11] How far do you think you can get with a great product? So an example would be people always sort of like point to like Slack versus Microsoft Teams. And it's like Slack is like clearly a great product or better, at least a better product than Teams. I don't know. I mean, now they've been acquired. So like, I don't know. We use Discord. So I'm not even up to date on the current happenings with Slack. But like for a while, certainly Slack was a much better product and Teams just like kind [39:41] product forward founder, let's say. What do you think about that and how far do you think you can get with a good product? [39:48] um, [39:49] Um, [39:51] Yeah, it's interesting. I mean... [39:57] Thank you. [39:57] The stock example is an interesting one, and I think from a...

[40:03] It's the kind of thing that investors bring up, right? When they're trying to see how big an opportunity can be. [40:10] I mean, I think of Slack as a huge success, right? Like there's like basically this new paradigm. Yes, sure, it's been around a while, but I feel like [40:17] the way we we do, you know, like real time chat with teams in the workspace was invented by Slack. And in my mind, in terms of like that modern. [40:26] version of it and what were they acquired for like 30 billion right is some something like that something like that i mean chum change compared to microsoft's like whatever but yeah i mean they were required for a lot i was yes it's a good outcome sure sure agreed but i i feel like i feel like that that product did i think it was both a commercial you know a commercial success and uh and and a product success so i wouldn't i wouldn't choose that as a negative example i think um i [40:53] I think maybe the question is a bit misleading. I don't think product by itself is going to do [40:59] Product by itself doesn't get you very far, right? There are plenty of great products that aren't great businesses. [41:05] I think... [41:07] I think there is this [41:09] overarching question, which is in the world of [41:12] in the world of AI where data is so important and context is so important, right? Will the dominant players, will their natural advantage with both, you know, having all your company data and all the users, like, is that impenetrable or not? Right. And I think that's like a, that's the real question with Slack. Right. [41:30] And, [41:31] And that's like, I mean...

[41:33] That's a hard one, right? And that's one where it's like... [41:38] If anyone who is starting a company today is like, okay, I know the [41:42] I know that I have the perfect strategy to make sure that Microsoft, but you know, won't, won't be able to do this or, or copy or whatever. I think. [41:50] I think they're lying. [41:51] I think you just have to believe that [41:54] You have some product that you believe desperately needs to exist in the world. And then I think you need to be really savvy and strategic about how you go and do that. And some of it is just up to luck. [42:04] Like that's my personal view. I mean, I think the... [42:07] I think the Notion guys did an exceptional job of this. There's no [42:11] technical moat. [42:12] right, in Notion, [42:14] I think their advantage is that it was... [42:17] It was out there enough when they started working on it that no one really took it seriously or could wrap their head around that this was like a real thing, which is like an interesting type of moat. I think if you... [42:28] tell most investors that that's your boat. They'll be like, what? But, uh, [42:33] But yeah, I mean, it's still interesting to see how that will play out. [42:36] Right. That's the Slack, Notion, Zoom. You know, they're all the they're all the like, [42:41] like the contenders trying to go up against the big folks. [42:44] Yeah, that's interesting. First of all, I love the way that you just like rejected the premise of the question. Great answer. Second of all, I actually have a slightly different take. I'm curious for your perspective, which is that. [42:59] Big companies like always fumble the bag. [43:03] and the

[43:05] The limits to performance or the way to maximize the performance of products on dimensions that customers care about are not going to end up being like... [43:16] really usually limited by like data or compute or um [43:23] I mean, maybe distribution is a little different one, but like data or compute, like, [43:28] which the big companies have, it's going to be like about risk appetite. [43:33] And if you're if you're releasing software to like hundreds of millions of people or tens of millions of people like who are used to it working a certain way. [43:42] your risk appetite just has to be a lot lower. And there's has to be many more levels of people being like, is this such a good idea? [43:49] And if you're a four-person team, you can just do like weird shit that like big companies can't do. [43:54] And especially because I think a lot of their users will keep them in the paradigm that they're used to. Like a lot of people have invested like their whole careers in Salesforce working a certain way. Salesforce can't just be like, no, it's actually this other thing because it's like there's a small group of AI early adopters that want that. But everyone else is like both on chat will be fine, you know. Yeah. [44:18] And so that's kind of what I think is like, [44:22] there's going to just be a lot of small companies doing weird stuff that that it feels a lot more AI native that early AI early adopters really like people who are have already been using chat to be in cloud for forever and are just like okay now I like I'm ready for like the new thing that like big companies are not going to be able to do because it's going to be too weird for their users and like even the even the like the dull bolt on chat experiences and all these all these

[44:52] They're so afraid of saying the wrong thing that it's, [44:54] it's usually like the answers are not good. Um, [44:59] Yeah, what do you think about that? [45:00] Oh, I mean, I completely agree with all of that, but I think that... [45:04] That doesn't... [45:05] I think that's kind of a disconnected point. I think basically what tends to happen is that [45:09] startups are way better at discovering new product categories, right? Because they can explore and test stuff out. And then usually there's like a seven year period, right? Before like the big companies are like, oh, this is a big deal. You know, we should like invest in this. And then that's, that's a, [45:27] like, [45:28] for sure, startups are going to [45:29] vastly upper form in that first stage. I think that the slap question is in that second stage, right? Once it's clear that this is like, you know what the product is, you know what the need is. And Microsoft, like the eye of Sauron turns on you. [45:42] Will you be able to defend yourself against that? Right. And I think that's like a totally different question. [45:47] Something you did say though, I think an interesting topic here are like, what are the [45:51] what are all the advantages in the AI space? Because a lot of times people, you know, you might say like, okay, everyone has access to the models, right? The big companies are clearly... [46:01] taking AI very seriously, right? And they're shipping AI features left and right. So [46:06] What's your advantage as a startup? And one of them [46:09] is, um, [46:10] You don't have a lot of users. [46:11] which is amazing. And what that means is that you can... [46:17] you can [46:18] ship features that use like frontier models right and you can figure out what works and what doesn't work because google can't do that like google can't ship something that uses like chat gpt for like gpt4 level intelligence to its billions of users it's like like physically not possible today right uh and then the other thing you can do is if you don't have that many users is you can just uh

[46:42] do this even if it's really expensive. [46:45] Right. Because like, like my, my view is like, if you're building an AI startup at the app layer, like I actually don't know anything about building like a, like AI startup where you're training your own models, right. From scratch or something like that. But if you're building up the app layer, [46:57] I think your job is basically to say, [46:59] what is the, what, what, like figure out what's the perfect product for, [47:04] for two years in the future. And then what that means is you use the latest models, you don't worry about how much it costs because you don't have many users, right? And it's going to take a while to scale your user base. And you just trust in the forces of capitalism and whatever the equivalent of Moore's Law is for AI intelligence, that AI costs are going to plummet in that time. And when that happens, you'll have a product that is [47:27] like that is AI native and exactly what users want and also financially viable at that time. [47:33] And how do you know what the perfect product is in two years? Put aside the cost question. [47:41] Yes. [47:42] I think [47:44] Yeah, that's a great question. I think one of the really hard things about building the space is that the technology is changing so quickly. [47:51] Right? And I think, um, [47:54] I think if you would be like, hey, Chris, what's the world going to look like in five years? What's AI going to be able to do? [48:01] There's a wide spectrum of answers. No one really knows. Some people might be more informed than others. But I think 12 to 18 months is a lot easier to imagine. There might be some step changes in there. And I think what you can do... When we started... So it's interesting. Like granola...

[48:19] like is not [48:20] It's not weird now, like the idea of it. When we started granola, there are a lot of things about it that... [48:26] Like, like context window sizes were like big enough, right? They were super slow. The intelligence level wasn't there. The quality of transcription wasn't really good enough. [48:35] You couldn't even capture audio. [48:37] on device for like most it's only the latest version of macOS I think it's still weird because of that [48:43] No one's doing that, you know, the on-device audio. Yeah, yeah, it's true. [48:48] They're starting to. They're starting to now. But yeah, anyway, we sat down, we were basically like, "What's going to happen?" [48:54] And... [48:54] We might have gotten lucky. We now try to do this periodically. We're like, okay, we think [48:59] we think cost of inference is going to go down. We think context windows are going to get much bigger. We think... [49:06] The cost of transcription will trend towards zero over time. That one's still to be to be seen, but like with whisper and things like that, I think we're we're on the right path. [49:15] Um, [49:15] And [49:17] And we just kind of were like, okay, if we're going to assume these things are going to happen, we're going to build a product based on that premise. It's like one of the reasons why Granola does real-time transcription as opposed to asynchronous transcription after the meetings ended. Because we're like, one day, real-time transcription will be just as good as asynchronous or good enough. And then it's clearly better to have your notes immediately at the end of the meeting, not... [49:38] five minutes or 10 minutes after the meeting ended. Yeah, yeah. [49:41] That's interesting. And I think to your earlier point, just us talking about big companies and not having a lot of users and,

[49:51] That being a good thing for startups to sort of be able to take risks and learn. I think, you know, when GBT3 and 4 were coming out and ChatGBTs first came on the scene, there was this like thing that was like, startups are over because like big companies are just going to have the AGI that just like figures out like exactly what the customer wants and you're just never going to be able to. [50:12] like compete. I think that that's just totally wrong. [50:15] and it seems like [50:19] uh even when you have a lot of intelligence at your disposal there's like so many different ways to use it and there's so much um [50:27] there's so much involved in [50:30] giving the AI the right knowledge and the right perspective and the right task to do that [50:36] Um, [50:38] even as they're getting smarter, I don't think it it's. [50:41] we kind of like [50:43] posited a God and then we're like, and the big companies are going to use the God. And then it was just like, oh yeah, startups are over. And it's so interesting to see that kind of [50:52] um [50:53] fantasy get pulled away and you start to see all the nuances of like [50:58] Even if you have this incredible tool, like how complicated it is, it actually is to like use it well and make something good with it. You know, it's really interesting to me. [51:07] Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how that one plays out. [51:10] The way I think about this is I think that there are two... [51:15] kind of competing tensions. [51:17] One is... [51:20] um,

[51:21] Convenience and accessibility are very real. [51:25] right and like if people have built a habit going to [51:29] chat gpt or cloud or whatnot for aid up like eight out of their ten tasks [51:34] then it's a lot easier for them to... [51:38] you know, use it for their ninth and 10th task. Right. I think that's like, that's like one, like human laziness is something that I will always bet on as a product builder. Right. I think the competing tension is, um, [51:51] specialization [51:53] for a problem. [51:55] Right. [51:57] And like when, when the experience or the output or the quality really matters to you, [52:02] um and and i think those are at odds so i actually [52:06] Whatever, I can't predict the future, but I'm kind of bullish on anybody who's building tools for professionals or experts. [52:14] Um, [52:14] I think you don't have to worry about the open AI taking over the world. I think if you are building... [52:23] something for consumers and it's a task where the consumer doesn't... It's a bit like Google, right? There could have been lots of niche specialized search engines, but the reality is that most of the time people just... [52:35] like use the thing that they use for everything else even if it's not the best search engine [52:40] So I think about that a lot. I think the other thing from a startup builder perspective is like, if, you know, whatever, one of these big companies do get AGI and take over them, like, [52:50] What are you going to do in the meantime? Right? Like, so shouldn't you, it's like Pascal's dilemma, right? It's like, shouldn't you try to build a really great company or product in case that doesn't happen or they don't dominate? Because if they do, otherwise you can sit around and like twirl your thumbs and then it's, and then they fumble the ball. You're gonna be like, damn it. I should have been building the startup the whole time. You can't just like hold out for UBI and AGI, you know? One thing about that though is, um,

[53:15] Which I... [53:17] I think this is a good piece of advice. It's served us well, but it's basically like... [53:21] Don't, [53:23] Like when you're building your product or your company, like don't solve problems. [53:26] That won't be problems 12 months from now. [53:29] Right? It's very easy to do that. You're like, ah, shit. Users keep asking for this. Our product doesn't do it well. [53:36] whatever the the models aren't good enough so i'm gonna spend a bunch of time fixing it and then and it always takes longer to fix things than you think and it always takes longer to grow your users than you think and then like 12 months go by and like the next version of the model as you predicted i'm [53:49] solves it for you. And that was all wasted effort. Whereas you could have spent that time on something else. I think that's like a... [53:54] That's one of those moments where it's really important, I think, not to listen to your users right now because the shelf life of that fix is very short. So, yeah, you got to make sure you're out there. [54:04] You're writing that. [54:05] you're riding that tsunami of technical innovation, you know, that wave rather than [54:10] I'm trying to like title in front of it. [54:12] I think that's great. I want to go back to your specialization versus generalization point, which if I had to reframe it, it would be like, [54:21] For startups, like the sweet spot or like a, a, um, a pretty, a good bet is like, if you're specialized in a particular thing, um, [54:31] you're not going to get blown out by the open ais of the world like you'll be really good at like the doctor chat or i don't know i'm just like figuring i'm just i'm just making something up um but then if you're if you're doing the general thing then you're really playing with the big boys and like maybe you can win but like it's at least you know getting the mind share to be the thing that people type in instead of chat gpt is like really hard um and you have to be like really

[55:01] like [55:01] generalization versus specialization like continuum. [55:05] Yeah. [55:06] And just to make a point there, when I say specialize, I mean in the type of worker task that you have. So I guess like an example here is like Photoshop versus like the default, like, you know, photo editing thing on your phone. Right. Like I think if like there will always be something like Photoshop. Right. Or Final Cut Pro or whatever, though, like the thing that's used by experts that are trying to be the best at their. [55:33] of their domain. [55:35] I think Gernal needs to be... [55:37] in that category, right? Like I think right now, and we've always stopped this, like meeting notes are a stepping stone. [55:44] right to, [55:45] actually helping you do all the work that you need to do right it's like um i don't know i think like [55:51] designers, like product designers spend a lot of time in Figma, engineers spend a lot of time in [55:56] in Visual Studio or whatever ID they choose. And I don't think there's an equivalent or there hasn't been an equivalent until now for people whose jobs center around other people, like relationships, whether it's meetings or emails or... [56:10] or things like that. [56:11] But I do think granola needs to... [56:15] move much further down that line or it's like how do we make you a 10 times better version of yourself when it comes to that type of work [56:23] And that's very much in our sights. I think right now you look at it and it's like, okay, meeting notes, [56:30] Maybe you really like it. Maybe there's lots of reasons to like us, but I think the...

[56:34] we need to go further down the specialization. [56:37] What do like if, you know, I don't know what you feel like you can share, but like if we're looking to the future the next year or so, like what are some of the things that are on your mind that like people should be maybe what are you what are you thinking about? Like, what does that mean for you in the next year or so? [56:52] So I think there... [56:53] There's some obvious things about Granola. We just need to do it. Like right now, it's just on your computer. It should be on your phone. Right now, it's single player. It should work with your team. So that stuff aside. I think in the future, 80% of the value that users are going to get from Granola is going to come from... [57:12] granola helping them do [57:15] like the, [57:15] the tasks or the workflows that get spawned in a meeting. [57:19] And [57:21] We don't. [57:22] yet know what that looks like exactly, but lots of different prototypes internally. My belief is [57:28] So I think there's a view out there, which is, [57:32] We're going to create these AI agents and they're going to do all these things for you, right? And I think that's like a... [57:36] like a valid view and i'm really curious to see what products or experiences come out of those [57:42] That's not... [57:43] That's not the view we're taking at Granola. The view we're taking at Granola is one where [57:47] same thing with the notes. We want to [57:50] remove the busy work. [57:51] so that [57:52] you can better apply your judgment on the stuff that matters. And I think [57:57] If you come out of a meeting... [57:59] And right now we're just thinking about one meeting at a time, but I think we'll be more expansive in the future. [58:03] There's a lot of...

[58:05] busy work and like, okay, I need to send a follow-up email and describe what we've done or scheduling another meeting. But the way I see granola is like, I'd like granola to take you 85% of the way there, right? Anything that involves a lot of unnecessary clicks, like granola should do. But ultimately... [58:22] the tasks, the work should always come from you. Um, and, and it should have your spin. And I think that's what people want, uh, to be honest. Like, I think, I think, uh, [58:31] I think if you daydream, you're like, oh yeah, wouldn't it be great if my AI agent did all my work for me? But I think if you actually think about it carefully, it's not really what you want because [58:41] um, [58:43] It's just not coming from you. [58:46] It's never going to do it like you would. I think what you want to do is you want it to be a better version of yourself. I totally agree. I love that version of the future. [58:56] I think I'm rooting for you to achieve that. I can't wait to try what you make next. This is a really great conversation. I had a lot of fun. I love the product. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much, Dan. This was... [59:11] And this felt like we were chatting. Like, what do you want to be like to listen to this? [59:17] That's the goal. So for people who want to find out more or want to find Granola or follow you on whatever social platforms or whatever, where can people find you online? [59:28] Yeah, so granola.ai. Check out the website. It's a Mac-only app for now, but more things are coming.

[59:37] And then you can follow me on [59:39] Twitter or you can follow Granola on Twitter. It's meetgranola on Twitter. [59:44] And I'm CJ Pedrigal on X. And we really need to up our LinkedIn game, but we haven't done that yet. So don't follow us there. Or do, but don't have high expectations. Excellent. Cool. Thanks, Chris. [59:55] Thanks, sir. Have a great one. [1:00:04] Oh my gosh, folks, you absolutely positively have to smash that like button and subscribe to AI and I. Why? Because this show is the epitome of awesomeness. It's like finding a treasure chest in your backyard, but instead of gold, it's filled with pure unadulterated knowledge bombs about chat GPT. Every episode is a roller coaster of emotions, insights and laughter that will leave you on the edge of your seat. [1:00:28] craving for more. It's not just a show. It's a journey into the future with Dan Shipper as the captain of the spaceship. [1:00:36] So do yourself a favor. Hit like, smash subscribe, and strap in for the ride of your life. [1:00:41] And now, without any further ado, let me just say, Dan, I'm absolutely hopelessly in love with you.