The DAO Dance | Ben Huh, Origami

[00:00] When you go on a date with Carrie... [00:02] What's the Sex and the City woman's character? Carrie. We're a pressure. [00:06] Co-Raja. [00:08] You know that you're going to... [00:11] be talked about in her column and like that's that's the phase we're in I feel like where it's like [00:18] We talk about everything in this podcast. So... [00:23] I think people have to come to expect that from us. Okay, great. [00:39] No. [00:40] Just boys club. [00:41] Hey! Hi! [00:43] I'm Natasha. I'm Dina. [00:46] We're the founders of Boys Club. Natasha, what's Boys Club? [00:50] Boys Club is a network network. [00:55] Yeah. [00:56] It is. [00:58] It's a network. It's a network. [01:01] What do you think? [01:03] It's so simple. Great, great, great, great. Let's use that. Okay, so if you, yeah, if this network consists of a podcast, which you're listening to, by the way, if you're listening to this podcast and you like the podcast, [01:18] Please like it and subscribe and rate it. Rate it five stars. Rate it five stars. Because someone rated it something lower. And so it's a 4.9 right now on Spotify. Which we're totally at peace with. And then we have a newsletter, which we just migrated to Substack. And that was a very fun process. And so it looks very slick now. And it's mobile optimized. I love how we got this tweet one time that was like, I love the Boys Club newsletter, even though I can't read it on my mobile phone.

[01:45] I was like, that's such a big endorsement. [01:48] So yeah, we had been using something that was totally subpar, but now we are mobile optimized. And we have a Discord that's application gated, but we encourage you to apply. And we do events and a bunch of fun stuff. So that's Boys Club. [02:03] It's a boys club. And we had a great podcast today. We spoke to Ben Ha. [02:09] He's one of the co-founders of Origami. And we talked about the creator economy. We talked about DAOs. Really great stuff. We went into that conversation. We don't know him. And it was like a cold intro. Actually, it wasn't cold. It was a warm intro. But we hadn't talked to him. [02:27] really not knowing what to expect. And lovely, lovely guy. Really lovely guy. I really appreciate what they're doing at Origami because basically they're like – [02:36] powering up DAOs. So they're supporting all of the various things that DAOs need from like legal stuff to thinking about governance, tokenomics, like, and what's encouraging to me about it is that [02:48] We both have a real belief that DAOs are like a new way to organize a business like an LLC or C Corp or whatever. And so to see projects like this and companies like his that are really taking it. [02:59] Having a similar approach to the work, I feel like is really encouraging for the future of DAOs. He was also just like super pragmatic, which I appreciate in this space as well. Yeah. When things can get pretty theoretical. Philosophical. Yeah, totally. And then in what's happening in our DAO this week, what did we talk about, Natasha? We were talking about how we've really, you know, we've had boys club for a year and we're –

[03:24] We have a new... [03:26] Vision. [03:28] Time to grow up. Time to grow up. But we need to. I don't know that we have a new vision. We need to. We need a vision. I think we have a new vision. We don't have a roadmap for that vision. [03:37] So we talked through that? We did talk through that. Yeah. The feelings check-in was extra special this week because... You're saying that because you didn't have to give an update. You didn't have to give an update at all. [03:49] Natasha talked through... [03:53] Her feelings related to an event she went to this week that I just really highly recommend everyone stick around to listen to. I feel like there is a high, high risk now in inviting either of us to anything because of how transparent we are on this podcast. Like there's a real... [04:07] that like tune into the latest, see, see us at an event and then tune into the latest podcast to see how we felt about it. Totally. I wonder if that will result in more or less invitations. Totally. We redacted all sensitive. Yes. No, no one was put on blast. No one was doxed. No one was doxed. [04:26] So keep inviting us. Yeah, please. The invites should not stop. But then some draft tweets. [04:32] Yeah, some fine draft tweets. Really subpar on the draft tweets. They're fine. Tune in to the end to hear. Okay, so just quick shout out to our sponsor, Moonpay. So they ship this thing called NFT Checkout, which is a way to buy NFTs online. [04:51] with a credit card. Yeah, pretty amazing. Which, exciting, but also maybe a little bit dangerous, depending on the decision-making or the environment. But yeah, you can basically go on OBC,

[05:05] and use NFT checkout and, um, [05:08] buy also you can with a credit card yeah you can also go to the minting site and then go to moon pay buy it and then have it so it's pretty incredible yeah um if you've ever minted an nft and you get to that point where you're like oh man i don't have a theorem in all it like or solana they also do solana um and a lot of other a lot of other things as well um and if you had moon pay you wouldn't have to worry about that so thanks moon pay [05:35] We love you. [05:36] Yeah, thanks so much. [05:45] Ben Ha is a serial entrepreneur and angel investor. He's currently the co-founder of Origami, where he's booting up the world's most valuable DAOs. Previously, he was the co-founder of Social Construct, a construction technology spin-out from Y Combinator, working to build better cities and housing for everyone. He's also a big meme guy, which we love. Ben, welcome to the show. [06:08] Totally. So as is tradition with our guests, we're going to play explain the tweet with you, Ben. The tweet that we chose for you is layered. It's good. [06:19] Quite layered. It's layered, yeah. It's literally layered. It's a retweet. So I'm going to have to first provide the context for the original tweet, and then we'll give your quote tweet. So you're retweeting a tweet. [06:29] from A16Z where you're referencing that Web3 pays $174,000 per creator and how stark that is compared to Spotify and YouTube. That was basically the...

[06:40] the quote tweet, and then you say... [06:42] The creator economy will migrate almost entirely to Web3 over the next decade. There simply isn't a viable alternative on Web 2.0. [06:51] Natasha, what's your level of comprehension in this tweet? Well, having had my Instagram hacked and removed this week, I feel like my level of comprehension is very high. It's right here. Maybe a little recency bias. Exactly. So I understand the premise, but I don't. What I'm curious about is like how we get there and how you think we get there. So, yeah, I'll hand it off to you. [07:20] Great. So I lived in Web2. I built a company in Web2, user-generated content. It was internet meme-related. It was called the Cheeseburger Network. And what we found was that there's an enormous amount of creativity out there in the crowd, right? Some people are just doing it for fun. Some people are really thinking about it for beer money. But the ambitions really didn't go that far beyond that back in like 2010 when memes came onto popular culture. And the economics around that was really, really bad, right? So [07:48] If we looked at the amount of ad revenue that we were generating from general meme humor, which doesn't fetch a lot of ad revenues, [07:55] The cost of sending out checks [07:58] which 2010 at the time, we had to calculate that part. Literally, the postage stamp wasn't going to be paid for by their share of revenues. Brutal. Brutal, right? We're a multi-million dollar company that's actually building software with 150 employees. I mean, it was not a small-time operation, but...

[08:18] There was so much inefficiency in the system that it was just not possible for somebody like Facebook or Twitter to actually pay you for contributing to the platform. And so this is when I saw Web3 and just the ethos around, you know, how do we actually have an ownership economy from the ground up? And how does the blockchain allow a more efficient allocation of value? That became really fascinating because now you can have the participants own the network. [08:45] You don't have this class separation between owners and employees and people who contribute. And so I think this tweet was... [08:54] really the KPI, the metrics that show you just what happens when you start to remove some of the overhead that we've built up over the time. [09:06] That really rings true for me. And I feel like what also is sort of in that is this idea that for the creator economy and web two, like sure, for a lot of people, like... [09:20] It... [09:22] For some people, it pays out well. But there's like a whole long tail of creators that are left behind in the Web 2 model that in Web 3... [09:32] I think might have a fighting chance to make more of a, of a reasonable living in that long tail. And I'm curious, like, does that track with you? And if so, like, how do you, where do you, how do you think, what's the, what's the roadmap been? Tell us how to get there. [09:45] Okay, so one of the things that this will not change, Web 2, Web 3, Web 4, any kind of version of the web will not change the parallel distribution of wealth in any given system.

[09:58] And so the assumption that we have to make is 90% of the users will end up in the long tail and probably just make a little bit of money. The top 1% or 0.1% of a large enough group... [10:12] will actually capture an enormous share of that economy. [10:16] Right? [10:17] We've seen that power law distribution over and over again, even in entire sectors of companies, where a leading company will capture 50% of the market share or market value, and then the second has half that, 25%. And you've seen this model over and over again. So let's not assume that we can change that. We're not trying to flatten out the curve. What we want to do is increase the pie. So it's okay that you end up with a billionaire creator. [10:42] Because that actually means that the long tail [10:44] is moving up as well. And now what we want to do is give people the platform to actually continue to grow their skills to go move up the food chain. [10:52] Okay, that makes so much sense to me because, yeah, the thing I've struggled with was sort of like the creator economy in Web3 is this idea that like all of a sudden... [11:00] everybody's going to be on the same playing field, which there's always going to be popularity. There's always going to be people who, you know, like have a craft are the best at that platform, whatever it may be. So that really brings it hope for me in the sense that it's basically [11:14] It's not that the distribution necessarily will be evened out. It will be that the capital that we're working within is just a larger pool. That's right. And that's what the tweet's actually pointing at, right? So YouTube and Spotify paid, what is it, $22 billion in 2021. You can see that on a per-user basis, if we can grow the pie of Web3, that all that money will find its value.

[11:41] Value proposition, it's target intended audience much faster, much more efficiently. That's what we're trying to figure out. How do we make the system more efficient so that the value capture doesn't happen at the overhead? [11:52] or the gatekeeper, the value capture actually goes to the creator and the people actually doing the distribution. [11:57] Yeah. Cool. So Ben, I have a question. How do you think, so right now, you know, when I'm looking at, um, [12:04] music NFTs and looking at sort of what this last bull run looked like in terms of what that did with NFTs and the creator economy. [12:13] The primary use case was around collecting. And I'm curious, like when we can get past that, because that to me feels like, [12:21] Um, [12:23] Like powerful, but probably a limited TAM for people who are interested in like collecting for collecting sake. Yeah. So – [12:32] What's your crystal ball say? [12:34] Hold on a second. [12:41] Yeah, I totally agree that we need to get beyond collecting. There's only so many profile photo NFVs that I can actually, quote unquote, invest in, right? These are not investment grade things. These are consumables. And we also haven't figured out how to consume these collectibles. [12:55] How do you actually add utility, add functionality so that they become not a thing that you speculate on, but you own because of the inherent value of the network, the affinity, or whatever it gets you? And that's going to take a lot more time to build than buy an NFT, mint it, and hold it.

[13:14] And so the amount of creative uses of a unique cryptographic token. At the base of this, it's not about the JPEGs, it's about that reference in the block that refers to that contract and that item ID. That is such a... [13:34] atomic building block. [13:36] We're going to have to build an entire ecosystem on top of these. So if you want to use NFTs as a way to sell a hotel room, I booked a hotel room. I got it for a low price because it was preseason. And now as the prices climb, I can actually... [13:51] resell that. [13:52] Now I have an asset that is represented as an NFT that somebody else might want to buy off of me. Now, the travel industry has to support that. [14:03] There has to be a new norm in consumer behavior to support that. So the work ahead of us is humongously large. But we've also gone through this before. [14:12] Yeah. Right? We started with dial-up with the internet. And here we are. [14:16] You guys are in Bogota. I'm in the East Bay. We're doing a live recording. I mean, what an amazing world we live in right now. Slash dystopian. Yeah. [14:27] Okay, let's finish it. Oh, go ahead, Natasha. I think we're on the same page, Gina. Yeah. [14:32] But I'd love to pivot to our favorite topic, DAOs, and the work that you're doing at Origami. So could you tell us a little bit about what you founded, what you're working on, and what that looks like? Yeah, so I spent the last year and a half or so learning about how to build DAOs. And I built an investment club DAO that bought JPEGs with a bunch of friends and realized that direct democracy only works at a really small scale and is also very ill-defined.

[15:02] much more scalable, right? Which is much more reflective of the thousands of years of history and culture that we've built that says, "Hey, we've got representative democracy. We've got things like [15:15] austrification of power. How do we counter that? How do we get better transparency and communication out there? How do we actually create a DAO that scales to millions of members? And what does that do to society? And what kind of [15:28] What can that accomplish? And so Origami was born out of the desire to create a much more scalable DAO. [15:34] And so one of the first use cases was OrangeDAO, which is a group of founders of YCBAC companies. And we've raised a venture fund to do that. [15:46] to actually invest into Web3 companies. And the venture fund is actually separate. It's a normal 2 on 20 traditional venture fund, but it has a partnership with the DAO, which allows the DAO to be more than 100 members. [15:57] And so I think we're at over $1,300 now, closing on $1,400. And so Origami is building the... [16:05] framework around it. The software, the charter, and the documentation, the best practices, the playbook. Yeah. [16:12] Cool. So is origami for... I mean, are you... [16:16] I guess this is your first use case, but are you primarily looking at investment DAOs or are you thinking about other DAO use cases as well? [16:23] Yeah, we actually have a lot of other DAO use cases. So some DeFi protocols are working with us to actually launch their protocol. So we handle the governance and the DAO side of things, and they handle the DeFi side.

[16:34] Think of DAOs as part of the operating system that is common to all of these large-scale communities, and so we're powering that part. We've also got just generalist communities that are creating governance over their alumni group or over their existing community. [16:55] Cool. So... [16:58] I have a question about sort of how you guys are approaching the legal structures within DAOs because that has been such a pain point and a journey for Boys Club as we sort of formalize all of this stuff. So asking for a friend, how are you guys approaching the legal sort of loopholes or like not loopholes, but like the dancing around you have to do with being a DAO? And also like given the news last week around governance tokens and all of that. Yeah, the CDFC. [17:28] Let's handle the CCFC ruling. It's kind of absurd that they just wrote their own... They were a little bit like... [17:36] Judge and jury and almost executioner all in one. And there's a lot of legal experts who are kind of dumbfounded by the decision that they made. Now, the thing that we have to... [17:47] understand here is that CTFC, which is a commodities regulatory agency, only has [17:53] jurisdiction over a very small sliver of what crypto does, commodities and futures. And so their ruling and their interpretation does not apply to all of DAOs. It does not apply to all of crypto. [18:03] So you have to look at it in the very narrow light of, you know, CTFC is taking their action against one group.

[18:09] Okay. [18:11] So rest of DAOs, if you're not doing US-based futures trading, [18:16] You're totally fine from that ruling, okay? [18:20] If you are building a DAO, I think it's important, and we've been saying this for a long time, that you build an entity, that you actually hire people under that liability shield. It's not a guarantee that an agency will respect that, but it's certainly much more in line with all the work that we know about how to limit liability in businesses and things like that. [18:41] There's also, to go back to the question of like what DAO entities, there's been a lot of competition over the last year of new countries and regulators coming up with [18:54] So a couple examples. One is the Marshall Islands. [18:59] which basically has a similar law as the United States. Actually, the LLC law in the Marshall Islands is basically the same thing as the United States. A bunch of large shipping corporations are headquartered out of there and uses their entity structure. And it's relatively low cost, and it is something that you can do today. It costs about $10,000. [19:20] Google's Marshall Islands. Google Maps. I have no idea where we're in the world. It's run by a DAO. Am I DAO? Like Marshall Islands DAO. So they're like natives, right? Yeah. [19:32] Yeah, so I think... [19:34] The hard part for a lot of [19:36] DAOs and communities is to make the decision and say, while nothing is perfect, we're going to go down this path. Yeah. Yeah. Big time.

[19:44] Big time. I think that that's actually what... [19:48] That's really stage advice. I think when we were, I know it's still very much an alive process for us, but as we've been in this journey of figuring out what the entities look like around Boys Club and the containers and stuff, like... [20:00] we had 15 different conversations with 15 very well-respected people in the field who have, you know, experience in this environment, [20:09] industry, however short-lived it is. And we got 15 different recommendations. Yeah, absolutely. And so I think you're sort of exactly right, which is like, okay, there's certainly no one set defined path, but it's like just being really... [20:24] clear about like what the trade-offs and benefits are for each approach and like just trying to navigate. And one of the principles that we use was like, [20:32] What? [20:32] How can we approach our... [20:35] you know, this work and in a way that like, [20:40] were... [20:41] we're making decisions that preserve our optionality in the future. So we're not doing anything that closes doors prematurely. That is exactly the route that I preach, which is simpler systems are more resilient. Simpler systems and simpler decisions allow you to keep optionality so that when moving... [20:58] When the puck moves, you can go where it's going. Yeah, totally. [21:02] Totally. So, okay, this is so interesting. So what you were talking, you were sort of loosely referencing something that we're starting to think about, which is like this idea of like a... [21:13] governance board for the DAO where like we're starting to consolidate. I think we started and we're like, okay, everyone thinking and voting and talking about everything. And then like quickly realized that like, there's a lot of, nevermind. And also that that is in many ways, like at odds with,

[21:32] how innovation works. And, um, and you know, for us, we're, we're, we're looking for product market fit. We're trying to figure out like what the business looks like and how we create something that's really sustainable. And so, and that's like sort of at odds with this idea of like, Oh, communal sort of governments. And so I'd love to hear some more from you about, um, about that and your recommendations in that realm. Yeah. Um, [21:55] I think there's nice theory, and then there's a practical reality of people who need to join a DAO, understand what the heck's going on, and wanting to contribute and making sure that they are served. [22:03] And so one of the most talked about features on Origami's platform is the org chart. [22:11] Right? If you ask some people in the DAO space, an org chart is completely anathema to what they're trying to do. Like, no org chart, no people, it's just wallet addresses, and you mash buttons until you get the results you want. Right? We certainly don't believe that. We believe that for DAOs to serve people... [22:29] for DAOs to allow for disagreement, to have conversation, to understand what Natasha's interests are versus Deanna's, I need to know them as people, not just wallets. And so the communication tools need to be there, the ability to actually... [22:43] have a social feed needs to be there, and to understand who has what responsibility in this organization needs to be there. And if you think about just how DAOs and sub-DAOs work, there is already hierarchy. There's already a flow of information and mandate. And so we shouldn't ignore that. We should actually support that and make it easier. [23:00] Yeah, I really, really like that approach because I think –

[23:05] were confronted often with just... [23:09] having a flat [23:11] or like approaching the work in like a flat org, actually can do like a real disservice. And then you're sort of like, met with purists who are like, no, no, no, the whole intention is that we're all sort of like doing this together. And I think there's, I think there's a really beautiful middle ground. And I'm, I'm really encouraged to hear other people. [23:27] people and leaders in the DAO space thinking about how we get at sort of the key principles that we all want and know and love about DAOs, but also layering on like real practicality of how work gets done and distributed amongst a lot of people. So it's really encouraging to hear that from your perspective, because I think that's really been our approach as well. It's like, how do we do, how do we do DAO in a way that feels right to us and also gets the work, gets the work done [23:57] And really been great to have you on. So we'd love to ask our guests in the end and in closing, like, what are some things that you're really excited about in this space? It can be DAO specifically or just more broadly, things that you're really looking forward to in the Web3 land. [24:12] The quiet development that that's going to come for the next year or so during this crypto winter, so to speak. It doesn't seem like much of a winter. Almost everybody I know has moved into crypto, so it feels like a much quieter, nicer way of...

[24:35] So builders and people who have problems who will want to solve them will come up with amazing ideas, and it's going to be done in ways that we've never dreamt of. That's what entrepreneurship is, and I'm super excited to see that. And we're super excited to support these ambitious DAOs that want to grow to hundreds of thousands of people. Because that's going to have a step function change the way we look at networks and how networks can actually pull their power as people to affect change. [25:02] Ben, do you think the DAOs are the future of work? [25:06] I think DAOs are a future of work. Work is so old that we won't change it overnight. I think DAOs are going to actually move a lot of people into full-time roles because it is the most efficient. And once you start to get scaling beyond, say, 100 members, you will need a full-time kind of air traffic controller or coordinator. [25:26] Yeah. [25:26] Cool. Awesome. Well, this is so great, Ben. Ben, thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for taking the time out at Bogota to do this. Appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. [25:40] Hey. We're starting over because Dina said I had bad energy. This is take two. She's like, your energy is low and it's bad. I was like, we need to sage the previous take. And by sage to the previous take, it just meant stop recording, start recording. Okay. What's happening in our DAO this week, Natasha? Okay. We have identified a need. That is what has happened in our DAO this week.

[26:10] It was great. And like nothing bad happened, but like we both got off and we were like, we, there's like a lack of vision. [26:18] for from all of us for where we're headed or like an identifying of that there is [26:25] a new season we're in, in terms of Boys Club, we'd like have moved past this like crypto curious community, like focus on onboarding. [26:33] And we're on to this new thing. [26:35] that is like media company, product studio, launching things, like really focused on [26:42] production in the world and boys club being like this machine that allows for that. [26:49] And... [26:50] That's like a really exciting phase. I'm super excited. [26:54] juice to do that work and have a lot of belief in sort of what that looks like. But it's very opaque. [27:01] in terms of what the roadmap of that work is. And like, it's very, it's very, [27:07] Like, I can't see, I can see, like, the one, I'm, like, in a foggy land, and I can see, like, one stone in front of the other, but, like... [27:16] I don't think we've done the work to like clear the noise, think it through and be like, this is where we're headed. These are the things we want to do this quarter. These are things we want to do this year. And like, [27:27] That takes... [27:30] like thoughtfulness that takes inspiration and vision and, and, [27:34] I think... [27:35] we didn't sort of identify how much of a need that was until the last few weeks where it's been like, oh,

[27:42] there's like a thing that's [27:43] missing and that's sort of like a North star around. Yeah. [27:47] different decisions along with a really clear roadmap of where [27:52] the work we're doing and the fall into like a priority list around what we want to see. Yeah. So I don't know. I think that's where we're at. [27:58] That's where we're at. It was really brought to life for me when I saw the C-Club. C-Club published like a Q4 planning project. [28:06] Yeah. Blog post or something. And it was like, these are the three things that we're thinking about this quarter. These are the investments that we're making. Like, these are the metrics associated with it. Like, it was just like, really, I mean, it wasn't anything groundbreaking in sort of how it was formatted and what it was. Yeah. [28:20] I don't know, just seeing that sort of from another DAO and being like, okay, we're really missing this because that just helps – [28:29] It just, yeah, I mean, there's a whole team of people that are working in and around Boys Club, and everyone just wants to know that the work that they're doing... [28:37] has value and has impact. And when you're lacking that sort of like top level strategy or vision, it's just really easy to burn out on the work and be like, I don't know that I'm moving the needle in any way. I mean, and this is just like, [28:52] This isn't unique to DAOs. I mean, I feel this in my day job as well. But I think that like... [28:59] as we're thinking about [29:01] Yeah, what's next for Boys Club? And also like... [29:06] Yeah, how we define the work, how we organize the work, what the work is. I think that there's a responsibility that we have and that the core team has to be like, this is...

[29:17] This is where we're headed. This is what we want to accomplish. And this is how we're going to get there. And we have not done that work. And we have not done that work. And I think two things. One, we met with another founder last week and they were sort of like... [29:31] working through, they're working through very similar questions that we are very similar set up of like, there's, there's sort of constellation of projects and things like that. And, [29:43] There was just like... [29:45] a lot of attention to the mechanisms and like the organization of all these various things and how they feed back into something and how, you know, like all of this sort of like just thoughtfulness around, um, [29:59] how those things are built and where they land and where the value is being created and all that sort of stuff. [30:06] It was... [30:08] Stuff that I think like we've talked about all the time. We've like mulled through, we like, you know, spent a lot of time sort of [30:15] thinking and talking about it, but like there was a clarity. And when you say it, just clarify like what you're referencing exactly. Oh, sort of just like – [30:24] Thank you. [30:25] Like... [30:26] The... [30:28] I mean, we keep saying vision, but like the roadmap, the roadmap of what we're doing, like... [30:32] Where are there the areas that we're investing in with our resources and our time? And why are we making those investments? How do they ladder up to... [30:43] a greater vision for what boys club is going to be and how it creates value in the world. And like, yeah, I think what was so, um,

[30:52] Like, I think what was so... [30:55] confronting about [30:57] that and looking at seed clip stuff is like, there's a simplicity to both those things that is very hard to get to actually. Like, [31:04] Getting to something that is legible and simple in this world of DAOs and many different projects and many different contributors is the work. Being like, this is the vision. This is how we get to the vision is actually what takes time. And having it laid out in a way that can be digestible to contributors, community, audience, all of these different various stakeholders within Boys Club is... [31:30] Like it has to come at like a very, it has to come very simply because you have to be able to translate that information very quickly. And like we talk about this all the time, like that context sharing. And so... [31:41] We and the core team and... [31:45] core contributors have had like a lot of conversations around it and like, sort of know where we're going and like, sort of have a sense of it. But like, [31:52] I think it's like, oh, there's not been like... [31:56] document a thing that we can distribute widely to [32:00] that that actually takes quite a bit of time. [32:03] Um, [32:05] Like, just... [32:06] Just a lot of time, a lot of time. And like, [32:11] some stakes in the ground around like this, it's that, it's that. And like, there's a lack of [32:18] flexibility and putting that out into the world that I think is a little scary. And I think we haven't made the time to do. And like that, that,

[32:27] has... [32:29] become... [32:30] And what's good about it is like the quote unquote problem has become much clearer in the last few weeks around like, oh, yeah, [32:39] This is what... [32:40] is needed. And that's good. You know, that's positive. Identifying what's needed is... Identifying what's needed is half the battle. Yeah. I think also one thing that someone said, it was Maddie, in the core team meeting last week was... [32:55] There's also something that naturally happens when an organization gets to a different size. It's one thing when you're zero to one, you're starting out, it's a handful of people, we're just being scrappy and agile and ducking and diving, and everyone sort of is like... [33:08] consenting to that type of journey and like understands what the expectations are in that type of world and like that things change all the time and like whatever we're all in it together and we're figuring out um [33:19] Boys Club was a year old. [33:21] There's, I don't know, 15 people who join a core team meeting every week. And then there's a sort of wider halo of about 40 contributors. [33:28] Discord's about 2,000 people. It's a different size and scale now. And I think we need to grow up a little bit. And we need to... And it's totally on us. Yeah, 100%. Totally taking full responsibility for this. And I think that... [33:46] We owe it to the team. We owe it to the community. And... [33:49] Just got to carve out the time to do it. Yeah. [33:53] Because I do think we have some ideas. I think that the team is very, very energized by...

[33:59] Yeah. [34:00] products being incubated from the Boys Club community, being tested by the Boys Club community, and being launched from the Boys Club. I think there's a lot of energy around what a new type of product studio looks like. I think there's a lot of energy around what... [34:15] media web three native media can look like um but we just need to be more deliberate in putting in in documenting that and sharing it and coming up with a plan for how we get there so yeah [34:28] And I think like, yeah, it's a little bit of like, [34:33] It's different. It's a different type of work. [34:36] than just like we're just throwing things out there and seeing what happens yes it is it is a little bit like oh i also don't think i'm very good at that like i totally think i'm not very i think i don't think we're very good at it i don't think either of us are very good i'm just like let's just see what happens yeah like let's just like i don't know do you just want to hop on call yeah so it's i think we're it's thing it's confronting for both it's challenging it's a it's [35:02] I don't actually think that we're bad at it. I take that back. I don't think that it's that we're bad at it. I think that it's... [35:07] really challenging work for us to like, [35:10] Distill it. [35:11] put it down on paper and then communicate it over and over and over again. Yeah. And I think that's what it takes. So. [35:17] Well, more there soon. More there soon. Bye. Okay. Bye. [35:23] Hey, Natasha. Yeah, Dina. Who is this podcast sponsored by? This podcast is brought to you by Moonpay. And it's very easy to be sponsored by someone when you legitimately like them and think that their product is really great. So here's the thing. At Boys Club, we are acutely aware of how cumbersome the onboarding of new people into crypto is. Even the simplest thing

[35:52] When you're first exploring crypto, this is basically all you're thinking about. MoonPay changes all of that. It's fast and simple and incredibly user-friendly. They make it so, so easy to jump into Web3. So easy that you can use your credit or debit card to buy and sell crypto and other digital collectibles. For all you crypto-native people out there, you know that this is an absolute rarity. It's trusted by millions worldwide and loved by yours truly at Boys Club. Visit MoonPay.com to get started. We love you, MoonPay. [36:23] Okay, so it's feelings check-in time. It's a feelings check-in moment. [36:27] We're just for the record debating how transparent to be about... [36:32] something like that Natasha's yeah but specifically a specific moment yeah [36:36] But I think we've decided. We've decided. I have so many feelings about it. So it's like, what else can I talk about besides this? [36:44] So here's the context. [36:47] I got invited to this. Sorry. Names can, we can protect the, we can, we don't have to say names. [36:52] We'll redact, yeah. [36:53] I got invited to this dinner. [36:56] from [36:57] Someone. [36:59] Um... [37:00] who was like, hey... [37:03] I have a invite, very intimate or small dinner with some people. Do you want to come? I was like, totally. It was a few weeks ago. Forget about it. And then I realized it's this week. And I go and like set the stage. [37:16] hosted by a partner at a very famous venture fund, a venture fund that like when I was at Indiegogo was like,

[37:28] Like, [37:29] obsessed with. Like I was obsessed. This was like the dream. It's, it's, [37:35] It's the dream fund. It's the most premier. Honestly, like as a New Yorker, I feel like it's the most premier fund. Oh, you might have just said. That might be carried away. Okay. Anyway. So this dinner was at a partner's house, apartment, home, mansion. It was unbelievable. I couldn't shut the fuck up about this apartment. And it was unbelievable. Way to play it cool. Just like super cool. Oh, tried, failed. And 10 people. [38:04] Like, cater... Like, chef... [38:06] course dinner thing. Mm-hmm. [38:08] Um... [38:10] And I experienced every spectrum of emotion a human being can experience at this dinner. Like, I was just like, what is wrong with me? Honestly, I was like, just why am I so why am I why am I so in touch with my feelings? I wish I wasn't. I wish I was just like buried him down and could just be like a normal person about just eating dinner with other people at someone's apartment. But I couldn't. And. [38:37] A few of the people there are like, I know well, and I'm friendly. I'm like friends with or work with. So like, I'm not going in completely blind, which is almost worse, a little bit worse, I think, because you can't like decide to be a version of yourself that's different than the version of yourself that you're on the hook for some continuity. You're on the hook for some continuity. I could talk about this dinner for a few.

[39:00] An hour and a half. I did. I called you the next morning and it was an hour and a half play by play. Um, [39:07] But... [39:08] There's like so many specific stories, but the main story that... [39:13] Like one, the actual dinner, like all of these people are either investors or founders or like [39:19] just very high up at very established crypto protocols or companies or whatever. [39:26] And of course I'm sitting there with like so much imposter syndrome. Like, I'm just like, what am I doing here? Radiating off you. Oh, just, oh, just reeking of it. And then I'm just like, do I pretend to be... [39:41] Are people noticing? And then I'm like, then I'm thinking about, do people notice that I feel like an imposter? Instead of even feeling like, do people know I'm an imposter? It's insane, the layers of... So then... [39:52] And like, I think what's weird to me is like, I'm not an insecure person. Like I, I'm a very, like, I'm very sure of myself. I'm very confident, but like. [39:59] There is nothing like this type of dinner where you really have to look inward and be like, man, it is so vulnerable being a founder. And then for me, it feels so vulnerable to be a founder in business. [40:13] a in this space because I'm just like there's so much of it that I like [40:20] don't really know about or care. Yeah. First of all, no. And then some of it, like, I just also don't care. Like, I'm just like, you know, I'm a big, I'm a, [40:30] consumer crypto gal. I'm like, yeah,

[40:33] And... [40:35] So much of the evening was talking about AI. [40:38] Much of the dinner conversation and I was like, okay, and like some of it's interesting some of it I just don't know and I'm just not educated on and [40:46] And like, I wanted to be like pulling out my phone, taking notes, being like, look, look up later, like to be Googled at a later date. [40:55] And then... [40:58] There's always the intro moment where everybody goes around the room and says who they are and what they're working on, how they, you know, know other people in the room. [41:07] And this is always my least favorite moment of everything. It's everyone's though. It's everyone's though. And so like we get to me and I'm just simply like, Hey, I'm Natasha. This is boys club. [41:19] *puff* [41:20] that's it. And then like, [41:22] We move on. And then I'm like... [41:25] Why can't I just be like, I don't know, sell it a little bit more. Sell it. Like, own it and sell it. And I'm just like, that just feels – it doesn't feel natural to me and it feels icky. But then I'm like, I miss my moment to, like, sell my thing more and sell, like – [41:40] the community and the brand and all this stuff anyway i'm like whatever [41:45] Anyway, the whole night, this is what's going on. There's, like, moments, and I'm, like, really reading into it, and... [41:51] Also, like most of these people I really like and are really cool. And like, I'm like, oh, this is great. So yeah, I think actually like it's just a moment of clarification that everyone was lovely. And no one made you feel that way. It's only you. Me. One thousand percent. It's a you problem. It's not a.

[42:06] It's 100%... Nobody. Everybody was so nice and so lovely and like totally great. Okay. So... [42:13] Just to cap out the evening, I feel I must tell this story. So... [42:19] I, at the end of the night, [42:22] One of the people I know there... [42:24] the guy who's hosting the dinner, the partner at this... [42:28] fund that I love. [42:31] is an investor in the person who invited me. [42:36] This partner has invested in their company. [42:39] And so didn't really have much... [42:42] talk with the investor, this partner. And then I was like, gotta go. And so I just like went up to him. I was like, thanks so much, whatever. Like, it's great. [42:52] Talked about the apartment again. I couldn't stop. I was like, when do you guys move in? I was just like so obsessed with this place. [43:00] And... For the record, you sent me the listing after... Oh, yeah. Found it immediately. After the dinner. And Street Easy is like my favorite like crazy girl platform. Anyway... [43:13] - So I'm like, "Hey, I just wanted to say, [43:16] Like... [43:17] Uh... [43:18] X person founder has only had amazing things to say about you. And like, [43:26] Then I'm like, and that's like very cool to hear. And I just want to let you know, I'm really impressed. And I was just like, as I'm saying it, I'm like, and then I was like, not that you need me, not that you need me to be impressed with you. And then I was like, shut up, shut the fuck up, just stop talking. But I couldn't, I could not. And I was like, oh my God, she's still talking, like out of body watching myself tell this person.

[44:08] like founders sometimes don't have great relationship with their investors. Like, what am I talking about? And I was like, but that's not the case at all. Like just really, anyway, really impressed. And he was like, [44:20] Thanks. And I was like, [44:22] Yep. And he was like, well, it would be cool to do something. And I was like, would be totally would be would be cool. And I was like, what is the thing we're doing? What are we doing together? And I was like, okay, um, yeah. [44:33] I'm going to go. And I was just like, what is wrong with you? And then I left and you were asleep. And I was just like, oh. [44:39] And it, like, wasn't that bad of the moment. But, like, for me, I was dying. I was dying inside. Yeah. So. It doesn't sound like a full fumble. But it sounds... [44:49] It wasn't like a shit the bed moment, but it wasn't a like... [44:52] I've shined. [44:54] I'm shining. You did not sparkle. I did not sparkle. [44:57] Anyway, super impressed. Super impressed. It was really fun. It was fun, despite the fact that I... [45:04] was really overthinking most of it. [45:06] And that's just me though. Just an overthinker. [45:11] So, [45:11] Anyway, that's my story. Anything else you feel like I should add based on knowing every other detail of the evening? [45:17] Um... [45:19] No, I think, I mean, just from the outside looking in, [45:26] That feeling that you had at that dinner is... [45:30] Like... [45:31] The reason we started Boys Club. [45:32] Yeah. [45:34] Like that's like really at the heart of it is like going somewhere and being amongst people who like know a lot about something and just feeling sort of kind of dumb and not knowing what your way in and not like feeling –

[45:47] this like space to... [45:49] sort of ask questions. And I know that like you're showing up in that situation as like a founder. And so you don't want to let people, [45:57] your guard down and like show people that like, [46:00] You don't know quite as much as... [46:03] The rest of the room. [46:04] the rest of the room, but I do want to acknowledge that [46:09] It's also fine. [46:10] Yeah. And... [46:12] That's what we're doing here. And so I think you can... [46:18] Like in the future, lean into that a little bit more. [46:20] Yeah. [46:22] Maybe you could have made a joke about it. [46:24] I mean, I love to make a joke. [46:27] Um, [46:28] So, yeah, I think you're right. And I think, like... [46:33] They're... [46:36] there's some level of [46:40] That feeling I haven't had in a really long time. I was like, oh, wow. Like I... [46:46] And I think it is compounded [46:50] with the vulnerability of being a founder and like I think so too [46:54] I was like, wow, this feels like early, like my first startup, like almost those days where I was like, oh, I don't. [47:01] Like, [47:02] I remember feeling so nervous to talk about the thing that you were working on. Yeah. And I haven't felt that. [47:09] at all with Boys Club, really. Like, very few... [47:12] times have I had that experience of like, oh my gosh, like, and I think part of what

[47:17] It is part of where that's coming from. Is this like, [47:22] this [47:25] desire to be like, like, [47:27] Those people, everybody at that table is like so in the game. Yeah. And... [47:32] For us, I... [47:35] There's this feeling of like, oh, I wish we had... [47:38] some sort of like, [47:41] distilled way to talk about how valuable Boys Club is. Because I genuinely, like so deeply, I'm like, this is such, there's something so valuable here. But it's not... [47:52] If you haven't experienced it, it's not super easy to communicate. And I think I'm really confronted with that in those moments and feel like, [48:02] I'm not doing that justice, and that feels bad. [48:06] Even more so than being at a table and feeling like, whoa, there's parts of these conversations that I'm just like totally not clicking with and like want to be want to bring something to the table and like don't feel like I can. [48:16] So anyway, that's that's that. But it was really I think if it was you, Natasha, not as boys, not in the context of boys going into that dinner, I think you would have a different experience. [48:28] A hundred percent. I would have had such a great time. Yeah. Yeah. [48:31] I mean, not that I didn't have a good time, but I would have been... [48:34] much more willing to be like, [48:36] I wonder what we need to do to bridge Natasha Natasha and Boyzco founder Natasha, because I think that like it is valuable that you go into those rooms and like. [48:45] you bring a different perspective that I think is like really needed for. I appreciate that. I think the pro I think why that night felt so,

[48:53] Like... [48:54] out of body is because I really haven't felt a disc. I haven't felt that with boys club. Yeah. And it was the first night that I felt that way where I was like, Oh shit. Like, like, [49:02] I feel those two, like, I feel the separation of me as who I am and me as a founder of Boys Club. And, like... [49:10] I think it just felt... [49:12] I think it was because I... [49:14] I felt just really confronted by [49:17] the [49:19] People maybe underestimating the value of boys club. Yeah. I think that's what it was. And like, I might totally, it's a hundred percent possible that I brought that into the room with me. Yeah. You know? Yeah. [49:29] Um, so if the person who invited me is listening, um, [49:33] I had a great time. Don't worry. [49:41] Hi. Okay. It's draft tweet time. Hi. [49:45] I have started to... [49:48] Like I've started to bank some because like the last few weeks, I've been like, wow, I'm digging. I'm really digging. Yeah. Yeah. That's smart. [49:53] What do we got? [49:55] I have two. They're both visual. This is my problem. I have a visual one this week too. Okay. I think I'm going to do this one just because I think it's really funny. Okay. You know the image. This image is like going around. It's like sort of viral of like a body and then like. [50:13] the soul leaving the body yeah you know what i mean it's like an outline of a man and then like his whole soul is leaving him so it's that picture and then my tweet is my belief in daos leaving my body when i look at my founder token allocation it's funny because it's true oh man that one hits close it hits real close okay your turn i don't

[50:43] Oh my God. That's just put it on the podcast. Um, okay. Mine is also visual. Um, [50:52] It's a photo of... Okay, do you know the Twitter account Dripped Out Technology Brothers? [50:58] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't follow it, but I've seen people like it. It's a pretty funny follow. It's a photo of a young Mark Zuckerberg. [51:06] um, sitting in like an office and he, I'm just going to show you the photo and then I can describe it. Okay. So he's wearing, um, he's wearing these, these slides. [51:17] And, um... [51:21] And so the tweet is... [51:24] like a quote to that and... [51:26] And something like... I hadn't really worked it out, but something like... The absolute grips that these slides had on elder millennials. [51:34] But that's not exactly... The tweet needs to be worked up a lot. But I will just... When I saw those slides... I was just triggered. Yes. You and Dave. No, I know. But this is the... [51:47] This is, do you remember these ones? They had like the pointy bottoms. You might be too young for this. [51:51] Oh, wait, those go like into the toe? [51:54] No, they don't go into the toe, but they had like... [51:57] The bottoms of them were like little spikes in the middle. [52:00] Oh, oh, yeah. And the top is a Velcro. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay, okay, okay. That, you know what I mean? I do. And so those slides... [52:13] Just were everything in junior high, like everything and high school. Like it was just like you could not escape them. So anyway, that has a lot of context in and around it. But wow.

[52:27] I love it. That's my draft. There it is. [52:29] There it is. Okay. I don't think either one of us should send it this way. No. They're both not very strong. Pass on both. [52:37] Okay. Okay. Bye. Bye.