Living on the Blockchain | Stefen Deleveaux, Govrn

[00:00] I do want to majorly shout out Tyler, who is the guy who actually made this website. [00:04] And I had a call with him yesterday and he's so nice and he's so talented and he works very hard and he's also really handsome. So I was like, I love you. [00:17] Hello, I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? No, no. [00:29] Just boy stuff. [00:30] Hi. [00:31] Hey, so what's Voice Club? [00:33] Uh... [00:34] I knew you were going to ask me this week. Boys Club is a social doubt product studio company. [00:40] and media company [00:44] For the new internet. [00:45] There it is. You know, I was having a thought last night where I was like, [00:49] Man, forensic benefits doesn't have to... [00:52] They're just like... [00:53] a social DAO and [00:55] *sniff* [00:56] They don't have to go through these. They don't put themselves through these hoops to explain what it is. [01:01] Why? Why must we torture ourselves? [01:04] But I guess I don't know. Yeah, I guess I think the criticism would be like, [01:12] I think like... [01:14] For me, it's like Friends with Benefits is super cool. No idea what they're producing. And I want people to be like, oh, that's where I can slot in. [01:23] That's where I can get involved. You know? It's fair. Okay. So fun pod. Oh, well, that's part of that. Sorry. We have a newsletter. Here's how you can slot in. Yeah, exactly. We have a newsletter. We have this podcast. You should obviously...

[01:38] Listen to if you're here. We have a Discord, a community. You can apply to that on our website, which is getting redesigned by an angel. I'm going to do a whole spot on them. I'm going to do a whole ad. Okay. Well, let's just preview it because it's... It's an incredible situation. It's an incredible situation. And it is a product of my Twitter addiction. [01:58] Yeah, it's honestly, it's like a love-hate with what happened because I'm like, wow, [02:02] Something was like solidified in you around this in a really problematic way, but it's in the end we're winning. Okay. So the capital, which is a, I think they do like venture investing, they do banking. It's like financial... [02:15] products for startups. [02:17] It used to be Party Round. It's now Capital. [02:19] Yeah. It's basically like early stage founder, you show up and they have all the stuff that you need is my understanding. That's what their startup is. [02:26] They sent out a tweet. [02:28] a couple weeks ago that was like, "Hey, does anyone need their website redesigned? Just let us know." Hey, founders. Yeah. Yeah, hey, founders. So they were like doing some marketing thing around it. [02:37] I was, you know, I'm glued to Twitter. And so I saw it immediately and I was like, hey, yeah, voice club.fp, like peace. [02:45] fully not expecting [02:48] Anything. [02:49] And... [02:50] Lo and behold, like a couple hours later, they had designed... [02:56] A whole new website for us. Website. And it sent the link and they were like, here you go. And we were like... [03:01] Oh my God. And it's so cool. It's beautiful. It's so cool. It's so cool. So anyway, shout out to capital shout out to Tyler. Um, okay. So, uh, can't, can't remember. Uh, yeah. Okay. So join the chat if you're not already in the chat. Yeah. Yeah. So apply, um, to be, come on down. Um, and then we also do events and launch products and a bunch of other stuff. So, um, follow us on Twitter, I guess is the other way you can just slot in here.

[03:26] Okay, so we had a fun pod. We had Stephan Delaveau on the pod. He's from Govern. [03:37] So if you're in DAO world, you'll know govern. It's DAO tooling. It's basically like contributor time tracking makes it sound like really good. [03:46] kind of boring. It's not. They're trying to figure out how to organize this world. Like, organize DAO contribution, and honestly, it's been such an insane pain point for us. And we work with government, and they've been awesome. And Stefan is just... [04:00] Just the nicest guy. And no. Could not be nicer. Oh, okay. Oh, no. I wasn't. You were so. You look so. I was so effusive. I was like. [04:09] No, no, I could not be more effusive. We ran into him in Miami and... [04:14] I was like, he's so nice and generous. He's so nice. [04:19] And he's also just like really got some... [04:22] I think... [04:24] useful thinking about like the future of work, the future of DAOs, like how we organize that in a way that's actually productive and not just like spinning our wheels around stuff. So it was a really good conversation. And for us, like very appropriate in terms of the things that we've been wrestling with as a DAO and we're trying to figure out. So he's great. Give that a listen. Yeah. [04:43] And then we talk about some Dow updates that are just, again, so sexy. Legal issues. Legal issues that are coming up for us that we cannot... [04:53] Find a way through without spending a lot of money.

[04:57] And DAO specific, I feel like. [05:01] problems. [05:02] Yeah, definitely. Definitely daispecific problems. [05:05] And then we had a feeling check-in where we had a fight. Juicy. We had a fight. We fought. [05:12] We did it. We just talked through some conflict that we've had. We talked through some conflict. I'm feeling really exposed about it. Same. I mean, you and I are in a good spot. Like, we're not mad at each other. [05:22] I'm like looking at you directly. [05:27] But we did have some conflict this week. So that's what our feelings were about. And honestly, that is what the feelings check-in is about. [05:33] is like, [05:34] I did when we had sort of this conflict come up. [05:37] last week or whatever it was, [05:39] I was like, I felt upset. [05:41] at the feelings check-in because I was like... [05:45] This has become like a trope. [05:47] And it's actually like, [05:49] very fundamental to our working relationship. And I like texted you and I was like, hey, I need to have a feelings check-in tonight. And I was like annoyed because like the feelings check-in has become like [05:58] Yeah, just like... [05:59] a thing that the whole world, the whole world, the two people that listen to this podcast, anybody in the Boys Club universe, like, knows. And it's amazing. But it's also, like, [06:10] It's actually a tool that we legitimately use. It's a very legitimate tool. And it's a very important part of our relationship. And... [06:16] we had to go, we had to check in with that. [06:20] Yeah. And I was like, oh, wow, this is interesting that this is [06:25] It was like one of the first like real conflicts we've had since the family check-in has been a thing.

[06:30] Like out [06:32] on the podcast. And so... [06:34] It was interesting. Anyway. There's the episode. Shout out to our sponsor, MoonPay. MoonPay. Fast and easy. [06:41] The fastest and easiest way to... [06:45] Buy crypto. And put it in your wallet. Put it in your non-custodial wallet. So we love MoonPay. They're great sponsors and great interface. Easy to use, fast. [06:58] Go check it out. Moonpay.com. [07:06] So on today's show, we have Stefan Delaveau. Stefan is the president of the Caribbean Blockchain Alliance and the head of growth at Govern. And honestly, he's kind of the dude for DAOs. Like, I think that you're kind of the DAO dude. So welcome to the show, Stefan. [07:21] Yeah. [07:22] I'll actually take that. I'm good. How's it going? We're good. Good. Okay. So explain the tweet. The tweet that we pulled for you, honestly, there was a lot that we could have used, but just because you're so deep in the DAO world. And we have so many DAO needs and questions. So there was a lot to choose from. Okay. This tweet that you sent. [07:44] In any case, the need for more contribution records and accountability in DAOs, as well as the need for contribution-based governance, has been made pretty clear today. [07:53] Massively bullish on at govern HQ. [07:56] So, Natasha... [07:58] What's your level of comprehension in the street? [08:00] Feeling pretty optimistic. Very high. Very high. I mean, Boys Club is a contribution-gated DAO, so I feel like I have some good understanding of the need and sort of what you're speaking to, but have a lot of thoughts, questions, feelings about contribution and tracking and all that sort of stuff. But I would love for you to sort of take it away and give us your thinking on this.

[08:24] Sure. I mean, so contribution gating is something that is just showing itself to be really important. And obviously that's mainly what we do at Govern. [08:33] We're a platform for contribution tracking, contribution recording. We call it contribution management just to make it fancy. [08:43] That kind of becomes, I'll actually say it this way, so this idea of contribution-based governance is just that [08:50] Obviously, [08:51] token weighting, token governance isn't working. It's shown to have a lot of problems. I know that's something that you all talk about a lot as well. [08:59] Um, [09:01] And you have many different types of governance, like NFC governance is showing improvements, but there's still a lot of issues with that as well. [09:08] And if you ever want to get to the point of, [09:11] I mean, really, it comes down to so much of governance is constituted by capital. [09:16] Meaning that either you have to buy in or there's some kind of monetary [09:20] Um, [09:21] interaction where [09:23] the people who are [09:25] the people who are actually doing the work may not necessarily have [09:29] the same amount of governance as people who bought it. [09:32] for example. [09:33] And if you ever want to have DAO governance that's based on [09:37] labor instead of capital, where maybe the people who are doing the most work [09:41] may have either the same amount of say or even more say than just someone who's bought in. [09:47] and is asking like, [09:49] Why is my token not winning? [09:52] you need to have some kind of,

[09:55] layer of that work. You need this contribution layer that you can build, say, reputation on top of, that you can build [10:03] your identity and a different kind of identity. [10:06] on top of or you can just [10:08] use that to build up, um, [10:11] really this type of governance that's based on your contributions, meaning the work that you've done. [10:17] So that's what we do at Governe. We're building out this contribution layer, which comes from, you know, people recording their own contributions through the platform. [10:27] maybe a core team or even just another contributor attesting to that contribution, meaning just adding that level of [10:36] verification. [10:37] Um, [10:38] me saying, oh, I did this. And someone can go and say, oh, yeah, I saw Stefan do this. Or I know Stefan has done this. And it's just so I can't just make up stuff. [10:48] So that's kind of, [10:49] what it's weird because you need all these different levels. [10:53] But you need... [10:55] we govern basically becomes this building block. You can't have contribution-based governance [11:00] without [11:01] Like, [11:02] connecting reputation to, for example, to your contributions. You need that contribution layer, that kind of [11:09] on like that's at the bottom of everything that undergirds everything basically um [11:14] That's really... I don't even know if that's... [11:17] That doesn't totally break it down, but that's kind of like... [11:20] what that tweet was based off of. [11:24] Love it. So just for the record, Boys Club uses govern and Boys Club is a contribution to DAO. So just to be crystal clear about what that means for people who are maybe coming in totally fresh to Boys Club land or DAO or whatever.

[11:38] contribution gating means like in order to be in order to vote in the DAO, in order to have governance in the DAO, that's basically like voting and say on sort of the shape that it takes. [11:49] how we spend the money, whatever it is, you need to be a contributor. And... [11:56] And that means like basically like [11:58] yeah, contributing time, effort, resources into like, [12:03] into the business of the DAO. [12:08] So what I love personally about contribution gating is that – [12:12] in DAO and having that be sort of the gate for voting is that [12:17] It sort of assumes [12:19] It assumes a person has context. And so one of the things that like we always struggling with is like, [12:25] How do we get... [12:27] Just the context sharing is constant. It never ends. And it has to be there all the time in order for people to be able to participate in governance in a powerful way, both for the DAO, but also for them individually, in order for them to make informed decisions about how to vote and whatever. People need to understand the world of what's happening in the DAO and what's happening. [12:47] what our priorities are and what the vision is and the things that have been happening along the way. And one of the things, the great things about contributing, contribution gating is that like they're in it, you know, they're in the sort of running of it. And I think that that's really like a tidy, uh, [13:00] part of contribution gaining. But I'm curious, like... [13:03] There must be a trade-off. [13:05] Like what's the trade-off? [13:06] if in having that be the thing and not like –

[13:10] tokens that you would buy or something like that. [13:14] That's a really good question. So, I mean, the benefit of having tokens, right, which is [13:20] probably why [13:21] it was done like that to begin with is that tokens do provide this level of [13:25] They provide liquidity, really. Like you can build an economy... [13:30] through your tokens for your organization, for your ecosystem, etc. So that is still important, which is why I like [13:36] I think the best model that's going to come out of this is probably some kind of hybrid model. [13:41] where either where maybe like, you know, you still have a token, you have this economy around it, [13:46] but maybe your contributors have more governance than, say, just token holders. So I think having kind of a dual system [13:53] may end up being, and we're still, you know, [13:55] This is all just experiments. [13:57] But the dual system of the hybrid system is something that will probably make the most sense at the end of the day. But of course, there will be those that don't necessarily need an economy. [14:07] at least not a [14:09] particularly robust ones, so they may just have the contribution gaining. [14:13] Um [14:14] the work that you've done affects your governance and maybe they're paid through like a stable coin or something. Yeah, that's that's probably what we will really end up seeing. But I think just the raw [14:25] token voting is going to be short-lived, at least [14:30] for the next generation of DAOs. [14:33] Yeah. So something that's been interesting for us at Boys Club with People, [14:39] using govern is like, and just,

[14:42] a general shift, I think, from traditional work, is that the onus of [14:48] tracking your contribution, your time, [14:52] is on the contributor. And there's obviously much less oversight. You know, you don't have a boss, you don't have like this reporting line. It's like, okay, I've done this task or I've spent this time doing this thing and I'm going to attest to that and submit it. And that's a real shift, I think, [15:11] for everybody. That's a shift for people who are sort of leading some of these projects and Boys Club. And it's also a shift for the contributor. [15:20] And I'm just curious what you think about that and how that changes [15:25] The relationship to the work, the relationship to the organization, and sort of what the upside and the pros and cons of that are. [15:32] Yeah, I mean, it is honestly a complete paradigm shift and it's a complete mental shift because, let's say, for a traditional job, a traditional organization, [15:41] there doesn't really need to be as much contribution tracking because typically you have like a manager or a boss who's [15:47] watching very closely, which you do, maybe even sitting behind you during the day. [15:53] There's a lot of bosses that will literally just stand by people and watch them work. [15:58] But at the end of the day, there's more of a hierarchy. So the person who's above you is kind of making sure that you're doing things. [16:06] That doesn't happen as much in DAO as it is. Not necessarily flat, but flatter. [16:11] Um,

[16:12] so you may not have a specific supervisor or boss that will like [16:17] verify that you did the work as soon as you did the work. And what we are seeing in Dallas is [16:23] It's really chaotic. [16:25] Um, most of the time, we don't even talk enough about how, I mean, we talk about it a lot, but we don't even talk about it enough. Like how chaotic. Honestly, it's so comforting you saying that because like, when I think about it, I take it as like a personal failing. I'm like, wow, I've created chaos in the world. Like that's what I've done. And I'm like, it's really nice to hear that. So it is across a lot of doubts and a lot of, you know, um, how people are doing governance [16:55] to that. It's maybe not a... Is it maybe a DAO issue? And not specifically just a boys club issue. Yeah, no. It's fully a DAO issue. It's also because we're still figuring all this out. And we often talk about [17:07] emergence, which is really important for Dallas. [17:10] But emergence is kind of a synonym for chaos at the end of the day. Like, that was chaotic. [17:16] And even a lot of times when people are doing work, there's like, [17:20] you may have a new contributor coming in and say, oh, I want to do this, whatever this is. [17:25] Not realizing that someone else is already doing it because there's nowhere where they can see, oh, this person's doing that. Or someone said they're doing it and they're not actually doing it, which means that it doesn't get done at all. Oh, man. Stefan, I feel like it's really hidden. It's really like it's really true. I'm really feeling you. You feel seen, Dina. You're feeling seen. I feel very seen.

[17:55] happens across the space. [17:57] everywhere. So... [18:00] This is really why [18:02] Contribution tracking is so important, like recording your own contributions is important just to have this kind of [18:08] Way to say, oh, this is... [18:11] Actually, let me go back a bit also. [18:14] I'm just talking about contributors, but even for core teams, [18:17] There's... [18:18] It's literally impossible for how many people, it doesn't even matter how many people are in a core team, it's impossible for them to actually see what's happening, at least in a [18:29] in a way that really makes sense and in a way that's timely. You may be able to see [18:34] what's been done like a week later or a month later but in real time it's [18:38] almost impossible. [18:40] - Yes. [18:41] And [18:42] Honestly, a lot of DAOs are literally just... [18:47] recording what's happening on Excel, where there's one person trying to keep up with everything in Discord and just writing it down in Excel. [18:54] And... [18:55] If that's the future of work, then we failed completely. [19:01] so yeah and basically and i mean like a lot of daos use bounty systems for example but those are [19:08] not [19:10] the most efficient, they only really work in some contexts. [19:13] So you kind of need [19:15] one since you know [19:17] there's not people directly above you it's more of a flat hierarchy you need to record your own work and it doesn't have to be like right at the time it could be like a week later or something or like at the end of the week that's

[19:27] fine, but it just [19:28] It needs to be recorded. [19:29] Um, [19:31] So also that's kind of [19:32] how govern works as well like when you record your own contributions and you [19:36] and you can attribute it to a particular DAO because a lot of people [19:39] work in multiple DAOs. [19:41] And when you attribute it to a specific DAO, then we actually roll those like [19:45] all of those contributions up for that DAO to the core team or whatever. [19:50] group is in charge of that in particular. [19:54] Um, [19:55] That way, when it happens, [19:58] people can actually understand what's going on. And going back to the whole contribution layer thing, we're building out this contribution graph. [20:05] kind of in the same way that Lens is building out a social graph. [20:08] where you can get this like, [20:10] bird's eye view of what's actually happening in your DAO. [20:14] and maybe even what's happening in other DAOs when we like, [20:16] really build it out. [20:18] And that's just going to make it so much easier to [20:22] figure out what work needs to be done, what work is actually happening. [20:25] If you have like Boys Club is working on this particular thing, [20:29] and you find out through the graph that Surge is doing this, or Shefi is doing this, you can actually [20:36] build out this kind of [20:39] DAO-to-DAO collaboration just based off of individual work that's being done. You don't have to have a call [20:45] just to figure out that [20:47] you're kind of working on similar things. [20:49] You can literally find out just by... [20:51] Seeing, oh. [20:52] this contribution is happening or this contribution type is happening. Let's reach out. Let's actually [20:57] work on this together, let's collaborate. And that kind of opens up

[21:00] so many doors to build out this like proper doubt ecosystem of what's actually happening. But I'm, I'm, I'm getting ahead. No, no, no, that's great. I think that we like the Dow to Dow stuff is, is, [21:11] Um, [21:12] Like we've been looking at it and like just so excited by it, but like cannot crack it and cannot crack. [21:19] figure out how, like it's hard enough to do [21:22] Dow, singular. Right, one Dow. Forget Dow to Dow. But it's something that I like – [21:28] can see... [21:30] um, [21:31] Yeah, like the potential is unbounded almost like in terms of what it represents. But yeah, I'm excited to... [21:39] have some like, I don't know, rails in place or something that like can... [21:43] where that can start to like come to life a little bit more because right now we're like, man, that would be amazing. Yeah. [21:48] Um, [21:49] But like, like we were like chatting briefly with, um, [21:54] the baddies and techs folk about, about like, okay, was there, is there like some way to sort of [21:59] fit this together. But anyway, maybe, Stefan, you'll figure it out for us. Tell us how to do the data network at some point. That's the plan. I mean, like, you know, when we build this out, when we have all these different values using Goverd and, like, [22:11] recording the contributions and building out on top of that. [22:14] It'll be so much easier to actually do that, to actually make sure that all these different points that you can work together on and collaborate on. [22:22] All right, like, you know, [22:24] Both of you can see it like both Dallas can actually see this. You can figure it out. You can plan it out, et cetera. Cool. So we'll get there. We'll get there. We'll get there. Okay. I have a question for you. That's like, it's just sort of related to what we've been talking about in, um,

[22:36] Like that. [22:38] record your your you have a lot of autonomy as as someone who's working in a dow structure right like and and a lot of responsibility to to track your own work and to have that be recorded and like that there's like sort of a paradigm shift that's required in order to do this new style of work and i'm wondering if you think that that self-selects for a certain kind of person like i know in boys club the the process to become a contributor is like very opaque and totally messy [23:08] long time to like find an opening and then try to pry your way in. Like we've totally failed at figuring out how to effectively onboard people and, or like have that invitation be there and like what that process looks like because we're all sort of just like trying to keep our head above the water with our own work, forget like onboarding more contributors and everything. [23:24] So, [23:25] Like, I know in our DAO, it's really hard to figure out how to contribute. And that – so it requires someone with a lot of tenacity to stick around and figure it out. And then if you are, like, in this world where everything is so uncertain and ambiguous and you're having to track your own work and, like, be a self-starter, like, it's a certain kind of person that's, like, here. Yeah. And I'm wondering if you think that that, like, has – [23:46] It has limiting... [23:48] In a way. [23:49] Or do you think the right people are here right now? [23:51] It's a great question. I mean, honestly, [23:54] becoming autonomous is a process. Like it's something that you kind of have to figure out. No one's really used to it. Um, that's why I have to shout out like, [24:04] the ready and people who have already been doing this kind of work before DAO, it's like pushing people towards becoming more autonomous.

[24:11] flat-out hierarchies, et cetera. [24:15] it's definitely a process and you have to figure it out so yeah for some it will be easier for some it will be harder but i [24:20] do think everyone can do it. [24:22] Um, [24:23] I think one of the biggest things we need in the doubt space is [24:28] just more [24:29] education and more workshops on how to actually act in this way. Like, you don't have a particular boss anymore. [24:36] So what does that mean for me? How do I shift the way I work? And I think we need to, and that'll definitely come to, but I think we need to be more, [24:43] intentional about helping people through that process. [24:48] And to be honest, [24:49] not to show again, but this is actually something we're working on too in the sense of [24:54] when, let's say, when contributors are recording things and what exactly they're doing, [24:59] DAO teams or core teams are seeing what's being done. And I think that's going to be [25:05] That's going to help in the sense of [25:08] everyone's going to just like whether you just came into a dow or whether you've been there a long time you'll be able to see more of [25:15] the work that's being done across the board. [25:17] meaning that whether it's a certain thing or whether it's even just like a category of something [25:22] it'll be easier to say, oh, this thing is happening more than anything else. [25:27] This other thing is happening maybe almost as much, but not quite. [25:31] this thing at the bottom is not like you can literally think of it like a list. [25:36] This thing at the bottom isn't really happening at all. Maybe I can jump in there. [25:40] as a new person and, you know,

[25:42] kind of fill in that gap. [25:44] Or maybe I can just work with [25:46] work on the thing that's happening the most and fit in there as well. [25:51] So I think there's going to be like with government, there's going to be a lot of conversation around. [25:56] Well, one, just the ability to see [25:58] for new people or for you all that are trying to onboard people. It'll be easier for that conversation to happen in terms of this is the work that's being done. This is the work [26:07] That's not being done. What are you interested? Let's, let's converge. Let's figure that out. Yeah. So that's what we're like really working on as well. [26:15] Hopefully that will help a lot of onboarding processes where people can just figure that out from the beginning. [26:21] Yeah. [26:23] Okay, so... [26:25] I have a question and it's going to sound a little negative, but I'm curious what your most, what is your most like cynical take on, on DAOs or, or web three? Like when you're looking at the space, what on your, maybe your worst day, what are you like? That's, that's not it. He seems like a really optimistic dude. I don't know. I'm getting a lot of optimism from stuff. It's a huge, it's a big optimism energy, which I love. And I feel like I'm like, okay, usually we're like, what are you most excited about? But I'm like, okay, let's hear what you're most concerned [26:55] some concern here. [26:57] I'm a pretty optimistic person. You got me pegged. But I think... [27:02] My biggest worry in this space is really just [27:06] adoption in general in the sense of [27:10] a lot of what we're building out is still very largely for like

[27:16] North America, US, maybe UK, EU. [27:21] heavy, heavy focus because that's what-- I mean, [27:23] Crypto is... [27:25] pretty well adopted globally at this point in a lot of ways. [27:29] but in terms of like, [27:31] Web3 culture and DAO culture, for example, and DAO infrastructure, it's still very largely US-based. [27:39] Most of the doubt people are in Williamsburg. [27:42] literally in williamsburg whenever i go to williamsburg i'm like okay this is this is where the dallas are oh my gosh wow [27:53] You know Natasha's there, right? That's where it's. Like literally that I'm currently in Williamsburg. Everyone's there. It's like, that's just what it is. [28:02] Wow, I love that. I love that so much. But there's... [28:10] So with DAOs and what we can build with DAOs, it's going to be so valuable and so impactful. [28:16] in the global south. [28:17] Yeah. [28:19] And again, I'm optimistic that that will come, but I don't think we're paying enough attention to that or figuring out what the needs are. And to some degree, [28:28] that will come from people in the global South. [28:31] uh you know beyond everything else like [28:34] we slash they will be the ones that are [28:37] because I'm in the Caribbean, will be the ones actually building out once we [28:41] like, [28:42] get proper adoption of [28:45] of crypto in general, Web3 in general.

[28:47] Um, [28:48] and get to that point, but I do think there just needs to be more [28:52] focus on now like for example ukraine now [28:54] That was hugely impactful. [28:57] Um, [28:58] And that's like, we need to [29:01] kind of [29:02] make sure that's happening even more. [29:04] And again, in the sense where [29:06] Maybe it's not like [29:08] US Web3 people being the leaders on that, but at least making sure that [29:14] the infrastructure is [29:16] built out with people in mind so that they can build their own tools. I know it's kind of [29:21] it's one of those things I'm still struggling with, like how much of it should come from the regular Web3 community, how much of it should be built being built out by like people in [29:30] there. [29:30] communities themselves. [29:32] I think it's a little of both. Um, [29:35] But yeah, that's [29:38] that's really the, the, [29:39] the main thing i worry slash just think about the most like what like to what extent [29:44] is what we're doing all these cool experiments on to what's going to be distributed? [29:48] Yeah, big time. Globally. Big time. [29:50] Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much. This was so fun. This was so nice. I'm sure we'll see you around. Definitely. William's work. Next time I'm in William's work for sure. All right. Thank you. This has been awesome. [30:07] Bye. [30:08] Thank you. [30:09] Hey. [30:10] Okay. So we're feeling a limitation. Okay. [30:13] of the Dow. [30:14] A limitation of the Dow. Honestly, I think it's more about like a limitation of resources if I actually think about it. Oh, really? Okay.

[30:21] I think you might be right. [30:23] We have been working on this product. This product's actually, we built a product, Boys Club built a product. [30:27] And it has been ready for months. [30:29] Months and months and months. [30:31] But... [30:33] Fairly. [30:34] the contributors who are working on it have, were like, Hey, before this launches, I'm going to, [30:40] There's some like legal work that needs to be done around it. And we were like, la, la, la, la, la, la, la. No, no. [30:49] No, there's not. [30:51] Um... [30:52] And there is. They're absolutely right. So... [30:55] Basically, it's been stuck in this sort of like... [30:58] Purgatory. [30:59] this product before we release it. We've released it to our community, but like release it more widely. [31:04] Because... [31:06] We don't have... [31:08] Like all there's so many different. [31:10] sort of legal... [31:12] Question marks. [31:13] around it, just because traditionally, when you launch software, [31:18] you have sort of this checklist of things that you go through. And traditionally when you launch software, you're either working with employees or you're working with contractors. [31:26] And both of those people have signed [31:29] within those documents, [31:31] a part of that document is basically an indemnity agreement that says anything goes wrong with this. Anybody sues, [31:38] for using this product or whatever. It's not my fault as an employee. It's the... [31:44] in corporations fault. [31:46] as the person who's hired me to do this work. [31:50] When you have a DAO...

[31:52] There's no paperwork. [31:53] No paperwork anywhere. [31:54] Nobody's got any paperwork. [31:56] So [31:58] you have very legitimate concerns from contributors saying, Hey, I have very legitimate job. I have all like, I don't want to be, [32:06] there's risk involved here. And... [32:09] I don't want to be liable for something that happens with this product that I... [32:13] I built, which [32:15] Totally. Absolutely. 100%. Totally fair. And just some context for it. So the product is basically like a blockchain blockchain. [32:23] Um, [32:24] like a reader. Like it's like, it puts like blockchain data into context. There's no like financial information [32:32] There's no... [32:34] transactions or any sort of financial exchange. It's really just like, [32:40] presenting blockchain data in a way that's more readable. [32:43] which seems really benign, but... [32:46] Like, I don't know, there's still, it's not without risk where someone... [32:52] someone who wants to... [32:56] A bad actor. A bad actor. Like, we saw it with Leighton in Pull Together. Like, there are plenty of bad actors in the world who are just, like, looking for opportunities to... Maybe they have an issue with the industry. Maybe they have an issue with Boys Club. Maybe they have an issue. Like, who knows? It's just, like, there are bad actors in the world. So having... [33:16] Like legal productions... [33:17] is important. And especially for like our contributors who are like, [33:21] They're just like very...

[33:23] They have like real families and jobs and like they – you know what I mean? Like it's not just like some kid – [33:30] Yeah. Like... [33:32] Off the grid. Yeah. So... [33:35] They're also all doxxed as well. [33:36] They're all doxxed. Yeah. That's another thing. [33:39] So it would be, yeah, pretty straightforward to figure out who these people are. [33:44] Because of that, [33:46] What has happened is we're like, okay, great. It opens up this can of worms to send it to our lawyer and, [33:52] who every single moment... [33:54] that a lawyer is looking at something or working on something you are like just [33:58] like shilling out so much money. And... [34:01] So then it's like, [34:03] There's a whole spectrum. [34:04] of what you could do [34:06] when you bring something to a lawyer. [34:08] Like you could spend... [34:10] $25,000 drop of hat or you could be like we're gonna do this really scrappy we're gonna do the bare minimum and so we've been trying to sort through like what's necessary what's not necessary what risk are we comfortable with as an incorporation like the liability that we're gonna take on with these indemnity agreements with our so basically sorry to say where we sort of have landed is like, okay, great, we're gonna just have the indemnity agreement. [34:34] to the contributors. So, [34:36] It protects them. [34:37] from being personally liable if something happens and basically says, this is any risk or any liability is going to be, [34:46] Boys Club Incorporated. [34:48] And [34:49] that gets at some of the legal questions. But like for me, if we were like flush with cash,

[34:54] Like this wouldn't be stressful. It wouldn't have taken time. We would have just like gone to lawyer been like great your whole proposal go for it. Here's a check like [35:02] Yeah. Done and done. [35:03] but we don't have resources to do that. [35:07] So we're strapped. Well, we do. I mean, we have 150 ETH in the treasury, and we could blow it all on lawyers right now for this one product. And none of us wants to do that. [35:14] Totally. Like, I think that that's the difference is that like, we just want to be really, really smart about where we use that money. And like, [35:19] sending that to like a legal firm to like help us some paperwork for something that like we want to be like, [35:24] Agile. [35:25] Yeah, we want to like just – it's an experiment. It's not like a big investment. So I think that that's the difference. [35:32] Yeah, and I think what came up for me is I'm like, oh... [35:36] Yeah, this is in direct conflict with... [35:40] the model that we want to have around [35:43] like [35:45] shipping things quickly, putting these out in the world scrappily. Like you start to really come up against that when you – [35:53] are building software because... [35:55] there's all these risks that like start to come up legal, like needs that come up that are really hard and expensive to solve for. [36:03] Yeah. And I think the other thing is that the DAO is not an entity. [36:07] And so it actually like, there's like some even more creative like ways that we're solving this by having like this umbrella ink that's like. [36:16] A holding company. Yeah, it's just like a web, a tangled little web. [36:21] There's like other risk issues. [36:23] That comes up because of that. So it's just like,

[36:26] It's frustrating that... [36:28] I mean, I guess this is just like building at the edges, but like... [36:31] Yeah. It's slowing things down and... [36:35] for it's, it slows things down for people who are not comfortable with, [36:40] a certain level of risk. [36:41] And I think for us in our community, [36:44] we're more risk averse than I think others. And I think that that, [36:48] is having an impact and we're feeling it. [36:51] Yeah, and... [36:54] But I also am like, and I know you feel this way too, but I'm like, I want to attract people [37:00] people who [37:02] have a different perspective, have like... [37:06] I love that we have contributors that are like less risk averse than us. Totally. Totally. Yeah, absolutely. I think there's no judgment on that at all. No, no, not at all. So, but I'm just like, how are all these other DAOs doing it? Like that are employing people. Like, are they signing paperwork? Are they just like... [37:21] living on the blockchain. So that's been really frustrating because I feel like... [37:27] Moving slowly is one of my biggest pet peeves. I just want to move so fast and like... [37:33] best is in conflict. There's some conflict in that. [37:36] Okay. All right. Any recommendations, legal recommendations, please hit us up on email us at hi at boys club. VIP. Thank you. Hey, Natasha. Yeah, Dina. Who is this podcast sponsored by?

[38:06] are acutely aware of how cumbersome the onboarding of new people into crypto is. Even the simplest thing, like setting up a wallet or buying a token, can be so overwhelming. When you're first exploring crypto, this is basically all you're thinking about. MoonPay changes all of that. It's fast and simple and incredibly user-friendly. They make it so, so easy to jump into Web3. So easy that you can use your credit or debit card to buy and sell crypto and other digital collectibles. For all you crypto-native people out there, you know that this is an absolute rarity. [38:36] It's trusted by millions worldwide and loved by yours truly at Boys Club. Visit MoonPay.com to get started. We love you, MoonPay. [38:46] Okay, so feelings, check in time. [38:49] This is a very special edition of Feelings Check-In. [38:53] This is a very raw edition. [38:56] Feelings check in. And it's also the second time we recorded it. So we're trying to get it right. [39:05] - Gina and I have had some conflict. We've had a little bit of conflict. [39:09] over, I don't know, it was resolved, but what was it, last week, two weeks ago? [39:16] And you guys hear a lot about our feelings, but we haven't really talked about a time that we like really disagree. [39:21] like fundamentally. And so now... [39:25] We're going to talk about that. So, yeah, we'll talk about the scenario and then we'll talk about... [39:31] what the conflict is. I actually don't know if we disagree. [39:35] I think you just think I handled it wrong.

[39:37] But I don't know. I actually don't know that we disagree. [39:41] Well, okay, let's get into it. Okay. So this is what happened. [39:44] Ahem. [39:45] So [39:46] We... [39:47] Oh man, where do I start? Okay. [39:50] So... [39:51] Let's talk about our fears. [39:53] I'm really here's the framing I'm really uptight about press [39:58] You're really uptight about her. I'm really uptight about talking to journalists. I'm really uptight about press. [40:03] Because I feel like they all come in with a take that's about Boys Club or about crypto. They all come in with a take about crypto. [40:12] And they layer Boys Club into an existing Take About Crypto, which is framed in money. [40:20] and like investing. And it's just like very heavily money-saving. [40:24] And [40:26] Anyone who's in Boys Club knows that... [40:28] That's not the vibe at all in Boys Club, and it's much more nuanced than that. We rarely talk about investing. It's not about money. It's about, like, designing the future. But journalists rarely understand that nuance, and so they come in with this, like, point of view. That's just – [40:43] My baggage with journalists, we've had some weird articles that were written in the past that just didn't feel true. And I'm just protective of the community when it comes to stuff like that. [40:51] Yeah. [40:53] Great. [40:55] Also, [40:56] Mm-hmm. [40:57] You... [40:58] get nervous... [40:59] that we're going to get canceled. [41:01] Yeah, I do like I am on I'm addicted to Twitter. [41:05] Fully addicted. And every day there's a new main character of Twitter that's getting canceled. And...

[41:12] I just don't want that to be voice club and I don't want it to be me. [41:16] Totally, totally. [41:18] Totally. So that feeds the press thing. Yeah. [41:26] On my end, there is this dynamic that we have where I – [41:34] Like [41:35] like for you to have eyes on things. Like I'm like, okay, I'm putting this thing out. I'm putting this together. I'm responding to this thing. Like, is this, how do we feel about this? Like, does this right approach? Whatever. [41:45] And 98% of the time. [41:47] It's like, [41:48] Good to go. Good to go. Good to go. [41:51] And like, there's no, that's my response. It's good to go. There's no notes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. There's no notes from you. [41:56] And... [41:58] We had this conversation the other day where I was like, [42:00] And I feel like that [42:01] has been much more amplified in this business than it was in our previous business because [42:06] I don't have, I don't feel confident about my footing in this industry because I don't work in it during the day. I am really like insecure about my, [42:16] not knowing exactly who the right players are. Like there's so much, [42:20] in crypto that you know from being in it. Like, oh, that person, like, he's sus or, like, whatever. All these things that, like, you learn by being in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. He's totally sus. And so, like... [42:34] Yeah, there's like definitely an insecurity on my end of like, I don't want to like make the wrong move that like other people who are more deep in it. [42:41] wouldn't. So that has been amplified during, with boys club, as opposed to all call.

[42:47] And we had a conversation a few weeks ago where you were like, you just need to trust yourself. Like 98% of the time, I'm not making any, I'm not, you're right about your instincts or like you're right about your approach. So like you don't need me to sign off on this stuff. Also, I actually have been thinking a lot about this and I think the other part of it is – [43:03] "When you ask me to review stuff, [43:06] I'm then doing that work as well. [43:08] So it's like, [43:09] Yeah. Whereas like we can – [43:12] one way to approach the work would be to really divide and conquer on the work and like, [43:17] I have a lane that I'm running in. You have a lane that you're running in. But when you pull me in to review things, I then like – [43:22] I get into that lane. [43:24] I'm now exposed to that lane. [43:26] So that's part of why it's like I'm trying more and more to get you to – [43:32] Just have the confidence. What's that? [43:35] Have the confidence to do it. Have the confidence, yeah, to just, like, make those decisions. [43:39] And... [43:42] It's not like I'm asking you to do it. It's not like I'm sending you the work to do. No, I know. But even if I'm reading an email and I totally get it. Yeah. Okay. [43:49] I'm just saying, like, I'm not like, hey, respond to this email. Yeah. I'm like, hey, is this the right approach? [43:54] So... [43:56] We [43:57] This has been a dynamic. [43:59] This all came to a head. [44:00] Where? [44:01] A. [44:02] Peace. [44:03] that was written, [44:05] about Boys Club and Dean and I. [44:07] And this reporter had reached out. We had done an interview with her and then she had some questions and she like sent us some questions. She sent us some questions and she, [44:16] I was just, I just responded to them. I was like sending them back. And then she like had some final questions and I responded to them. And then I was like,

[44:22] really [44:23] thought like, okay, I'm going to send this to Dina to make sure that like she feels good about this positioning. [44:28] And then I was like, no. [44:29] I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. Like, I'm just going to send it. Like, we've talked about this. [44:36] So I sent it. [44:37] Ah-ha. [44:38] Then the article comes out like a week or two ago. Mm-hmm. [44:42] Do you want to share what the article was? Sure. So it was a money.com article. [44:50] change makers list. [44:53] that we were on and [44:56] It was about boys club. [44:59] And... [45:00] There was a line in it. [45:02] that [45:03] I absolutely hate that. [45:06] Like I could not, I could not hate anymore. [45:10] The line is about... [45:12] I think it's actually like the initial framing of the story is like, [45:17] about... [45:19] the actually accurate and true origins of Boys Club, which was that Natasha and I were on a trip together... [45:25] And we were... [45:28] Right in Vegas. [45:29] And we were like brainstorming about what our next business was going to be. We just had like – [45:34] our last business has just been acquired. We were looking for some next, our new creative outlet, [45:41] We're on like this little tiny, like two day vacation together in Vegas to, to like get some space from my kids, honestly, and just have some time to do that work. So in a fun place.

[45:53] So we're in Vegas and this is where the idea for Boys Hope started. [45:59] Now, [46:01] that this is what Natasha told to the journalist. And it's actually what we've said in the past before. [46:06] She literally asked me. [46:08] - She asked, yeah. - Where were you? And what were you drinking? [46:11] And so I answered the question factually accurate. Okay, so how that shows up is the article starts that we're poolside in Vegas. [46:21] Mm-hmm. Which... [46:23] I just feel like makes us seem... [46:26] just kind of like unserious and dumb when we're actually like seasoned entrepreneurs. Like we've done like – [46:32] I think like more than anything else, it's just like, it's like, [46:36] Are these girls... [46:38] Just like stupid party girls. I don't think it's that. I don't think that that... [46:42] Okay, maybe. That wasn't actually what bothered me. That's the first time I've heard you say that. So I've never, and we've told this story a million times, which is the story. And every time we tell it, I'm always like, I don't know that I love it. [46:53] I don't know that I love it. Right. And I'm like, well, it's true. It's what happened. Okay. And so... [46:58] The real rub is this. [47:00] Yeah, go ahead. She mentions... [47:03] She said, there's a line that says that we were at the four seasons. [47:07] Um, [47:08] when we had this moment. [47:11] And name drops the Four Seasons. [47:13] And because Natasha told her Four Seasons, which is factually accurate. [47:17] But again, it doesn't reflect the spirit, I think, of what – or rather, maybe it doesn't reflect the spirit, but it frames it in a way that makes us seem like –

[47:29] rich privileged white girls [47:31] And like, [47:32] Of course we are. [47:34] In many ways. But we're not white lotus privileged. And like that's what it reads. Right, right, right, right, right, right. [47:40] It's like... [47:41] I just feel like it sets the tone for the rest of the thing that's like money, crypto, money. [47:47] wealth and like that's not what we're about at all. [47:51] So, yeah. [47:52] I also think we weren't staying there. [47:55] We weren't, and that's the other part of it. We snuck into the four seasons. [47:58] We snuck in there because we were like, we need a quiet space to work that does not smell like smoke. And the only place [48:04] Hot tip, Four Seasons does not have a casino. So that's the place to go if you want a quiet... [48:11] place to sit outside and [48:15] And work. [48:15] So [48:17] I totally understand. So then it came through and you were like, this does not feel right to me. I don't like this. This is like not good. Like I don't. [48:26] want to share this. I don't think it's accurate. Like whatever. [48:30] Yeah. [48:30] And I totally see. [48:33] How... [48:34] Someone... [48:36] And like no shade on the writer. Like she... Absolutely none. Zero. Zero shade on the writer. She did what she was... [48:46] She took the facts that I told her and she created a story, which is what... [48:51] what a journalist is supposed to do. That's literally their job. So like, it's no shade on her at all. [48:57] I can totally see how...

[49:00] That's shared. And the response is... [49:03] Look at these wealthy white women. [49:05] who [49:07] told all their friends and all these women to get into crypto and like, look what happened a year later. [49:12] And like, [49:13] Anybody who knows boys club, like you're saying knows that that's not it. And that's not what it's about. And like, [49:19] We are... [49:21] privileged in so many ways, but you and I are not like wealthy people. Like we're not like generational wealth people, like just going to the four seasons. Like, [49:30] It's just... [49:31] paints a picture that's inaccurate. And I totally get that. [49:34] It is unbelievably annoying. [49:37] to have that response. [49:38] come in when I'm like, this is exactly why I would send stuff to you. Because you do have a perspective and you have a very clear idea of what things should [49:49] look like and feel like, especially when it comes to press. So for me, it was like, this is validating of this fear that I have that like, [49:58] I... [50:01] Like... [50:02] Yeah, that my take or read on how Boys Club is positioned is not... It's like 80% of the way there, but it's not exactly right. [50:12] For you, it's like the perfect storm of like... [50:15] a takedown opportunity for boys club that's rooted in [50:19] All of these things that... [50:22] feel inaccurate and feel wrong to what we're doing. [50:27] So, yeah, that's what happened. So, actually, just going back to the original comment, I actually don't know where the conflict is in that because –

[50:35] I think... [50:37] Like, do you... [50:39] Agree. [50:40] Like rather, do you think that that... [50:43] I guess the conflict is in you think it's fine. You think that article is fine and I don't. [50:48] I think... [50:50] The... [50:53] I think you're never going to, you and I have like a fundamental difference in how we view press. [50:57] where all day long I would be sending, I would be like, whatever. [51:02] All press is good press. [51:03] You're never going to get a good story. You're never going to get a story that's [51:07] 100% what you want ever. So it's like you're never going to share press if you're constantly looking for something that like [51:14] perfectly positions you and like in every way makes you look exactly how you want it to look. That's never gonna happen. And so [51:22] What that does is like, we're just, we're very limited in what we share because most of the time you don't like, [51:28] how it's written. And [51:31] So that and like that type of like mainstream press gives us a ton of credibility. It's not about like, look at how cool I am. I'm on this list. It's like, look, boys club is like a legitimate thing that exists in the world. That's not some like niche basement dwelling situation. And... [51:45] That's what it's about for me, like legitimizing. I get that. I get that. That's all that it's about. And then it puts me in this weird position where I feel like I'm really fighting to share the change maker list. And I'm like, I don't care that I'm on this. It's not about me and you with this asset going out. It's about like... [52:03] that it's about Boys Club being relevant to the world. I get that. And wanting to remind people that we are relevant. And so –

[52:10] That's where the conflict comes in for me is like, [52:13] like... [52:15] Just feeling really restricted. I get it. I think if the press was wrong in other ways, I could live with it. [52:24] I think it feeling wrong in this particular way felt. [52:29] It's just... It feels impossible for me. But I think if it's like... [52:33] I don't know. [52:35] Thank you. [52:36] There's other things that I'd have more space on. [52:39] Yeah. [52:41] I know that to be true. [52:43] I know that to be true. [52:46] Okay. I mean, I just want everyone to know that it's totally fine now. It's like it's in the rearview mirror. It's totally fine now. I do feel like I'm going to want to edit this because it makes me sound like I can't literally do anything without you, which is absolutely not the case. That's not true at all. That's not true at all. I know, but that's how it's reading. And I also don't think that that's how – what? [53:02] I feel like that's how it's reading. And I'm like, not at all. I don't think that's how it's reading at all. [53:06] I think it's reading that... [53:08] You are insecure and I'm of type. [53:11] But I'm not like, I'm not like, I don't want to own that as like, I'm an insecure person or an insecure operator of a business. Like, yeah. [53:22] Am I? No. [53:24] Okay. Well, I'm like, there are things that I do feel insecure about. Sure. Sure. [53:29] There's things I feel uptight about, but I'm not an uptight operator of a business. [53:33] The learning is... [53:35] Not at all. The learning is... [53:38] Any press. [53:39] Any, any press.

[53:42] you will have final eyes on. [53:44] That's the learning. [53:46] That's the takeaway. [53:48] Right? [53:48] Sure. Yeah, I think it is. What? I feel like that's a great takeaway. No, I think it is. I just don't – I will always say no. [53:54] Oh my God. We need to call on Imani Orr. Imani. Imani Orr is our head of PR at Boys Club and she's just – We need to phone her in. She's there from now on. Or we need a therapist. [54:07] Okay. On that note. Bye. [54:21] it's early it's early and i'm worried that's gonna affect the vibe [54:27] I have one very stupid draft tweet. [54:31] Oh, I want to hear. It's just so stupid. [54:33] Are you ever on Twitter so much it makes you feel physically ill? [54:38] Because it happens to me. [54:42] Oh, my God. I honestly am curious how many hours today you spend on Twitter. Honestly. [54:47] I think I need to do a... [54:51] digital detox over Christmas break. Oh my gosh, that's exciting. Something needs to give. Shift. It's too much. Honestly, when there was all this talk this week about like, [55:02] Um, [55:04] I don't know how connected to you are, but like... [55:07] Like Elon's like running Twitter to the ground and like it's going to be like whatever. [55:11] There was a point where people were like, what if it goes away?

[55:16] Completely. And this guy was like, he was like, fuck Mastodon. I'm not going to like start over there. Like I'm just like going to fully... [55:24] commit to like dad, grow YouTube channel. Yeah. [55:28] Which I really relate to. It's like, honestly, to be freed. [55:33] Would be such a gift. [55:34] Wow. Oh my gosh. I actually saw that. I saw the noise around if it was just all going to go away. And I was like, I thought of you and I was like, man, [55:44] What is Dina going to do? Released from the grips. Freed. Freed finally at last. I have one draft tweet and I didn't send it for obvious reasons, but... [55:54] Or maybe not obvious. We can talk about them. But... [55:56] Every time Megan calls Harry H, a part of me dies. [56:01] I like them. I have no hate for her. It's nothing about that. It's just very cringy. [56:07] It's like so intimate. I'm like, ooh, ooh. [56:11] I don't need to know that. Oh, interesting. You find it intimate. I find it kind of... [56:15] I find it the opposite. I find it like... [56:17] Clinical. [56:19] Because I feel like they do that as like a code name so that they don't have to [56:24] like say the name [56:26] And then... His name? Say his name? Yeah, I think it's like... I think it probably... I don't know. I read it as like it started as something that they would... [56:35] used to like talk with like hotels or security [56:39] Oh, wow. Like people or like in their lives so that they weren't like saying the name. [56:45] Or their friends. Okay.

[56:46] Okay. Wow. That was my read, but maybe it's, maybe it's not. I just thought it was like nickname, cute nickname, but then that makes more sense because like his mom, her mom was saying it too. And I was like, this is weird. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's why. Cause it's like other people were using it. I don't know. Interesting. Honestly would love people's thoughts on Harry and Meghan. I'm, I'm confused about how I feel. I don't know. I'm lost. All right. Love wins. [57:16] .