Ep 135: 1) Ordinals and Runes 101 with Matthew Howells-Barby 2) Feelings on working in the most cringe industry

[00:01] Welcome to Boys Club Interviews. This is a show where we bring on people much smarter than us to talk about the new internet. I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? No. Just Boys Club. [00:19] Hi. Hey. Ordenals. Ordenal. We're Ordenal. Ordenals and runes today. [00:27] A 101. Didn't really know what they were, but now I do. Yeah, I had a real misunderstanding of the whole thing. So really interesting pod on really the Bitcoin ecosystem and what's happening there. We had on Matt Howells Barbie. [00:45] who is VP of growth at Kraken. [00:48] And we were looking for someone to explain ordinals and runes. [00:53] And he did a great job. And he definitely erred more on the technical explanation, but that's what it is. It's technology. So technology. Yeah, really interesting. He's a really nice guy and very generous explanation, which I always appreciate. And then we talk about some feelings about working in crypto, working in the most cringe industry of all. [01:16] like literally I wake up every morning and all I see is that meme of someone pressing the button that says cringe another day checking in [01:25] Okay, give it a listen. [01:28] Hey, Natasha. So a question we get asked a lot is, what do you look for in a crypto platform? So let's talk about it. Well, Dina, I look for a secure, no fuss platform that I can dive into right away. That's why I love today's sponsor, Kraken. If you're waiting for the right time to get into crypto, Kraken makes it super easy and intuitive to get started. Plus, if you get stuck, they have an award-winning client support team that's available 24-7, along with a bunch of educational guides, articles, and videos to help you along the way.

[01:57] to kraken.com backslash boys club and see what crypto can be not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. Cryptocurrency services are provided to us and us territory customers by payward ventures incorporated PVI DBA kraken view PVI's disclosure at kraken.com backslash legal backslash disclosures. [02:18] On today's pod, we have Matthew Howells Barbie as our guest. He is the VP of growth at Kraken. We love Kraken. Welcome to the show, Matthew. [02:27] Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. So the reason we called in Matt was because we have been seeing all this chat, all this conversation about runes and related to that ordinals. Natasha and I aren't. [02:42] Bitcoin people like we don't come from that side of the ecosystem and I truly have no idea what's going on over there. And so we asked you to come on to help explain this other universe to us. Seeing so many headlines about runes and ordinals and it's just like, phew, over my head. So excited to have you on to help us sort of understand what's going on here. [03:06] Well, if it makes you feel better, I think most of it goes over everyone's head, including the people who participate in the space. So I wouldn't feel too bad about it. Okay, great. From my perspective. [03:18] research my understanding is that [03:20] ordinals came first and then runes followed. So does it make sense for us to start at sort of ordinals and get our heads around that and then we can move on from there to runes?

[03:30] Yeah, I think that's the best and most logical starting point. Yeah, we had ordinals came first, a few things come after that. And then now we are in the era of runes, I guess. Okay. [03:43] So simplest terms possible. [03:46] What are or what is ordinals? I don't even know if it's [03:50] what tense we're in. What the pronouns are for. We're figuring it out. So the simplest way to think about this is just to think about ordinals. [04:02] as a whole, we'll get into some of the terminology, as NFTs [04:07] on bitcoin. [04:08] and the devil's in the detail here, it's the nuance of like how they're different from what we traditionally know as NFTs on things like Ethereum, Solana that separates them out. [04:20] - Yeah. [04:21] There's a few different ways in which they are different to how we have known [04:25] NFTs on [04:27] smart contract. [04:28] blockchains, which of course Bitcoin is not. [04:31] And I think the biggest piece on where [04:35] ordinals as a whole, [04:37] really gained some steam and traction was around [04:42] the storage of content. So in the case of NFTs, let's just keep things simple. [04:48] PFP, monkey JPEGs, right? And right now, if we look at Ethereum and NFTs, right, if you buy a Bored Ape, right, the artwork is actually not stored on the Ethereum blockchain. It is stored completely off chain, usually on a

[05:06] Many, many different services like IPFS, Arweave, or, you know, it could just be on the AWS servers. It doesn't really matter. [05:16] The actual... [05:17] on-chain NFT just simply references the location of that artwork. So it's kind of like your receipt, right? And I think for [05:26] Most people that aren't in the weeds of the technicalities of NFTs, you probably just assume it's all in one place. It's all wrapped up together. But it's an important distinction because on Bitcoin, the content, so the beautiful artwork of that monkey is hosted [05:42] directly on the Bitcoin blockchain. Now then what we have is, which we can probably go one click deeper, is [05:53] you have then the concept of like, [05:56] NFTs that reference the [05:59] the artwork that's stored on Bitcoin, but everything is on chain. So it's all housed in one place and it cannot, it's completely immutable. So if our AWS server gets wiped and our monkey JPEGs get wiped, [06:15] they are lost and are no longer able to be referenced in our Ethereum NFTs. Right? Like, so that can't happen. [06:22] Bitcoin. I think that's one [06:24] One important distinction. [06:27] Can I just ask one clarifying question, which is that my understanding was always that Bitcoin was inflexible. [06:33] by design and also part of its beauty was that it's like it's single purpose. And so how are they, they, I don't know who, but how is one able to like create this more malleable

[06:46] blockchain around Bitcoin and put... [06:48] Data, go, please. I have an add-on to this question. Great. That I think you were getting at is that my understanding is... [06:56] The way that we can use the Ethereum blockchain and other blockchains in a very flexible and creative way is basically through smart contracts where we're using that blockchain to do all these things. And my understanding, and I think what Dina is speaking to as well, is that Bitcoin by design doesn't have that and has a singular use case. So how is Ordinals actually doing what you're describing of where it's living now? [07:19] actually on the blockchain as opposed to being stored somewhere and just having a reference point and one other quick follow-up question is ordinals are ordinals [07:27] NFTs on Bitcoin or are they a NFT project on Bitcoin? That's a good question. Okay, let's break some of these down because I think that we're going to wrap them to a- We really went rapid fire on you. Yeah, no, this is great. So you touched on [07:42] probably the most contentious aspect around kind of the Bitcoin community, which is, should Bitcoin just be used for this one single use case? And I think the social consensus around that prior to ordinals coming to life in the beginning of 2023 was absolutely. And actually, this is the core value of Bitcoin. It's inflexibility, a single narrow purpose, [08:12] And where I think we have arrived, which I don't think many people, probably myself included, thought we would get to is that

[08:20] social consensus is probably leaning more towards there should be [08:25] multiple use cases now for Bitcoin and there's value in that. And I can already feel [08:30] the anger in the laserized Bitcoin community getting angry and disagreeing. Yeah, it's scary. Yeah. So I think that's one piece, right? But let's come back to the smart contract piece and some of the technical pieces, because this is where it's important. [08:48] What's... [08:49] Interesting, I think, about ordinals is the thing that limits ordinals and where you could say where its biggest disadvantages, and more specifically Bitcoin as a blockchain, is also some of its strongest value proposition. So it's like inflexibility, it's lack of complexity is kind of the thing that has made this, I guess, become so popular. We look at the... [09:12] free-flowing creativity that we've seen, especially in the last bull cycle around [09:17] NFTs in particular on Ethereum and the different things we can bake into smart contracts, whether that be over a set period of time. The artwork of an NFT might change and you can have these really complex systems where you burn NFTs and get new ones and all this other stuff. [09:35] the future is less certain for what this NFT and collection and project actually is, which is very [09:45] exciting and creative, but comes with it future risk. Right. And I think like one, arguably,

[09:52] The NFT collection with the greatest provenance that we've seen today is probably CryptoPunks. And CryptoPunks, you could maybe make a very strong argument for the fact that it's so valuable because [10:06] It has never tried to do anything complicated. And it has just been there. It was early and it's been there. So... [10:14] I'm just gonna like come back a little bit. [10:17] I think there's a little bit that we should just touch on in terminology because this is, I think, like the Bitcoin community at its finest with just, you know, [10:27] God bless them. Developers naming stuff and just making things very, very complicated for everyone involved. They love to do that. They love it. Yeah, absolutely. So we, you know, one of us touched on the start, you know, ordinals, what, what actually is it? Is it, is the NFT an ordinal? Is the thing an ordinal? Who is an ordinal? So there is. [10:47] ordinals which is the protocol which is kind of like the theory built on top of bitcoin which is largely all kind of off chain. This became possible. All of what we're discussing today, like the question that comes up a lot is [11:04] Why didn't we just have NFTs on? Why we only just have them now? Bitcoin's been around since 2008. [11:10] The key change here was in 2021, the taproot upgrade that came into fruition. [11:16] Don't need to get into the technicalities, but it basically facilitated. Thank you. We'll save everyone there. It facilitated some of the technical requirements that were needed to just create a little bit of flexibility so that we could do what we're doing today with all of this.

[11:34] Now you have ordinals for protocol and I think ordinals is usually a blanket term for everything involved in Bitcoin NFTs. And then you have inscriptions. Inscriptions are, I guess you could like [11:50] make the argument these are the NFTs. So the way this works is, so in Bitcoin today we have and have always had Bitcoins and then the lower denominations of Bitcoins are Satoshis or Sats, the pennies to the dollar. And then you've got these individual Satoshis. [12:11] What happens with ordinals is you inscribe [12:15] an individual satoshi which basically just means you place a a reference on a satoshi that that basically references [12:24] the content. [12:25] that you are saying, like the artwork that lives on the Bitcoin blockchain, [12:29] that says this is like what this NFT represents ownership in. In the same sense that like in a smart contract on Ethereum, you have the NFT that references, you know, some JPEG in a database somewhere off chain, that this is the way this works. So the thing that's actually being passed around are individual Satoshis and the Sats that are just traded around. And they basically just have the reference written into them, inscribed. These are referred to as inscriptions. [12:59] you hear like technically inscription and inscription is like what is the NFT per se. But typically people will just say it's an ordinal and it doesn't really matter. Right. Because it's okay. That's just just kind of the high level of them on that. I appreciate

[13:15] the grounding very much in the terminology. Thank you. Uh, so I found a Dune dashboard, [13:21] Did as much fact-checking as one is able to do on it, but it appears that [13:26] There's a significant amount of volume that's running through ordinals. What are people doing? Like what, what's, [13:32] occurring. [13:33] Are there like NFT collections? Like, is it mirroring the activity that we've seen on the Ethereum blockchain in terms of like NFT collections and PFPs and generative stuff? Or is it something else that's emerged on ordinals? [13:45] This is where I think this is the most interesting thing that I've noticed over in particular the past year with ordinals where so I think one of the questions I think Natasha you asked this is like is it just one collection like what or are there like collections so we started. [14:01] And this is a big part of ordinals and why there's such interest early on and why things have [14:07] kind of trended a little bit different, a very different path to Ethereum and the way collections and how we typically think about rarity provenance and like valuing NFTs. And now we've kind of started to converge into similar trends of this. So I'll explain it very briefly. And it all [14:24] really rests on two big parts of ordinals. One is the numbering system. So in Ethereum, and Solana and pretty much any other smart contract NFT protocol blockchain, you have individual collections and the rarity of the individual NFTs in that are determined by a whole host of things. But largely if we simplify it down to PFPs, like different traits, you have a zombie

[14:54] just like a regular punk. And everything is focused on collections. And typically we think about, okay, what is a really old, early collection? It's like the year that the collection launched. Well, they're technically [15:10] And by the way, in Ethereum and Solana, these collections are actually [15:15] formalized in a smart contract, right? There is a fixed supply, they all relate to the same smart contract. In Bitcoin, we don't have this. And instead, what you actually just have [15:26] is the Ordinal numbering system. So it started from the day that Ordinal's launched back in [15:33] I think Feb of 2023, maybe January, the first ever [15:38] ordinal kind of was inscribed, right? That was done by Casey Radama, the person who kind of came up with the the ordinal theory and also runes and [15:47] And that was inscription zero. [15:50] Yeah. [15:51] The next one to be [15:52] Inscribed. Inscription one. The next one. Two. Three. So it's completely serialized. No collection. Just think about like this number of system to span across all of ordinals. Right? So we're currently around... [16:06] 70 million [16:09] a bit more than 70 million of these have been inscribed onto the Bitcoin blockchain. So if you [16:15] had one of the you possess one of these like very early inscriptions [16:20] This interesting piece where I was talking about like the lack of flexibility to Bitcoin, that will never change.

[16:26] You know, inscription number five will always be inscription number five. And does that affect the value of it? [16:34] This is where it kind of gets interesting. Yes and no. Like there is absolutely early provenance like value placed, especially on sub 10K kind of inscription numbers. And I would say this is the number one way that you would kind of determine the value of ordinals early on. And then what we kind of started to see... [16:54] is... [16:56] kind of quote unquote collections forming where you would have things like, I'm just going to pick a random project, right? Like Bitcoin puppets, right? And they do like a typical 10k collection. It's not really a formal [17:11] kind of smart contract coded collection, it's more social consensus that this is the case. Those collections that inscribed very, very early on have like real, like material value. And then there's just like the typical stuff that makes an NFT project valuable, you know, credibility, kind of the Lindy effect and just like general provenance of like being a part of that community. So there's this extra piece that is layered into that. And [17:39] And there's one more piece, which is also pretty interesting. So I talked about how [17:46] ordinals are inscribed onto individual satoshis. [17:50] Right? So, [17:52] What came with Taproot is the ability to basically do this piece onto a single Satoshi.

[17:58] Not every Satoshi is equal. [18:01] And what was built into this was like a rarity system for Satoshis as well. So for example, and this largely is focused around Satoshis that were mined during the [18:14] notable events like a Bitcoin halving or were present in certain Bitcoin blocks like the Genesis block or maybe were in Satoshi's original wallet. And there's basically like, [18:26] common sats, which are just basically the most, as you can imagine, common Satoshi. Then you have uncommon, rare, epic, legendary, mythic. I don't think anyone has actually came out with any legendary or mythic ones, but just a little piece on this, because we don't need to dig into it too much, but like, [18:42] an epic sat. [18:44] is a Satoshi that was mined on the first of each of the halving blocks. And from this most recent halving, the first kind of epic sat was mined. And it sold at auction for 33.3 Bitcoin. So, you know, it's like around 2.1 million just for the Satoshi. Wow. Hasn't even, well, it hadn't been inscribed into. And now I think it was like, [19:07] an AI version of Grimes's voice into a song that's been inscribed into it. Cool. [19:13] That's a cool use. So basically the way that you can think about these Satoshis are almost like real estate. [19:19] Is that maybe a way to think about it? They're the canvas to the artwork. They're the land that you build the house on. Exactly. Okay. And then what you put on top of it, that's going to...

[19:29] put the price up or down depending on all these variables that exist within NFTs all over the place. So... [19:36] Can we talk about runes a little bit? [19:39] Just how does this relate to what we're talking about? You mentioned that it was the same creator. Like give us a one-on-one on that. [19:45] Yeah, so, you know, [19:48] ordinals paved the way for non-fungible tokens to be on Bitcoin. And I think [19:54] Like I mentioned before, despite probably popular opinion, Ordinals has categorically proved out, like love it or hate it, that there is a desire and there is demand for Bitcoin to expand its use case. [20:10] Bitcoin has actually been the number one chain for NFT trading volume. [20:15] relatively consistently since last December, beating Ethereum, Solana. So it's kind of here. And then during last year, kind of middle of the way through last year, a group of people started to say, hey, [20:28] Why don't we have fungible tokens? We have ERC [20:32] 20 tokens on Ethereum and turns out they're quite popular. Why don't we have the same thing on Bitcoin? [20:41] this kind of like protocol [20:43] arose called BRC20. You may have heard this reference through last year. And this was the first attempt to bring fungible [20:54] tokens. [20:55] into Bitcoin. I bring this up because Runes is now arguably or supposed to be the better version of this. Now BRC20

[21:04] it leveraged kind of the same four-man system as ordinals, where you would like effectively, if you had like a thousand supply fungible token, you're still like inscribing these almost like they're individual NFTs. And by the way, this is the biggest point of contention around a lot of ordinals and [21:23] BRC20 is just the sheer bloat that it puts on Bitcoin. Like this dramatically raises transaction fees which miners love but you know we went through, you see every time the ordinals go through a spike in popularity we're going from like you know $1 transaction fees to like $40 right. It's like a huge congestion. [21:45] So, um, [21:48] This is where runes came in. [21:49] And BRC20 wasn't created by Casey Radama who created Ordinals. It was like part of the community. And by the way, it was very popular in terms of trading volume, like hundreds of millions, probably billions in trading volume was done. I believe a couple of central exchange listings happened. Like there was quite a lot of hype and then it kind of fizzled out, but there's still a lot of trading activity that happens around it. [22:12] Runes has come in and is created by Casey, but it takes a slightly different approach to how we produce fungible tokens on Bitcoin versus BRC20s. And I think there's like two... [22:25] big technical differences. [22:27] I'm going to-- [22:27] Say what they are, but we won't go too deep into the technicals. I think I'll give the net net on why. So runes are UXTO based, whereas you have BRC20 tokens, which are ordinal space.

[22:42] So the net net on this is that runes create far less transaction bloat on Bitcoin because with BRC20s, even when you just want to transfer them to someone else, you have to do another inscription. And there's like two transactions happening every time. There's a huge amount of bloat. [22:59] The second piece, which is all related to this, is that [23:02] the way that information is stored around like, you know, the token ticker, the supply, things like that. It's stored in a Bitcoin transaction on runes. [23:13] in the OP return, which allows for like 80 bytes a day, a tiny, tiny amount. [23:18] In BRC20, it's in the witness, which is like four megabytes of data, which is like huge amounts. [23:24] they get bloated really quick. So not only do you have more transactions having to happen with BRC20, [23:30] They're way, way bigger, way more bloated, slow everything down. Runes is just... [23:34] super quick, more streamlined, and I think it just creates less congestion. And that will please the laser eyes Bitcoin community for sure. [23:45] So I'm doing my best to follow along on the technical thing. Thank you for breaking it down. There are definitely listeners who appreciate that. When we get into data, I'm like, [23:53] I don't know. I do not. My megabyte from my kilobyte, I shan't know. But I appreciate it very much. So basically what I'm taking from this is the fungible token and then by extension, [24:06] perhaps meme coins [24:08] on bitcoin is that ultimately where we've landed [24:12] That's where we've largely landed. I think have we just decided that the killer use case right now for crypto is meme coins? I think is that unfortunately the social consensus at the moment.

[24:23] Yes, I think that's where it started. Will it evolve from that? I imagine a lot. I think meme coins has been a good stress test. [24:30] But similar to runes, here's why it's good for meme coins, I would say. Runes is good for meme coins because I would argue that NFTs and the way that people probably trade NFTs, there is a similar mindset to how you might think about trading meme coins, right? [25:00] Right. [25:01] With runes, they implemented a similar [25:04] but a different numbering system that is again serialized. The first runes that appeared are rune zero, then one, two, three. So there's baked in like provenance that comes. So being a, you know, one of the first 10 runes and a popular meme coin, most of the runes that have launched, by the way, on Bitcoin come from [25:28] popular [25:29] ordinals projects that have then distributed the runes in like big kind of airdrops to um to their their holders so there's kind of this like baked in community culture that exists that's now like the tokenized version that's more tradable they're also a they're much more supported from a wallet perspective runes are versus brc20s brc20s for and continue to be a real nightmare to to figure out

[25:59] good luck trying to get it into your wallet. Whereas runes are a little bit easier. [26:04] Great. This has been super helpful. I feel like I have a much better understanding. So, final question here. I... [26:11] I feel like my experience in crypto thus far is... [26:14] A technological development happens on one of these blockchains that enables new novel use cases and projects and protocols and all these things. And sometimes that first wave of innovation is... [26:30] Maybe a little bit stupid. Like you're kind of like, okay, that's what we did. But then it enables all these other things and builders can then think about much more interesting consumer use cases for X, Y, or Z. I'm curious if anything off the top of your head from... [26:48] these developments on the Bitcoin blockchain and what is [26:52] ordinals and runes has enabled could potentially... [26:56] what it could enable for more consumer-first applications on. [27:01] Bitcoin? I don't know if there's anything that comes to mind for you around that. Well, I think this is really a great question because I think what ordinals did is almost operate as a proof of concept, not for NFTs on Bitcoin, not for kind of like ordinals as a whole to be like the next [27:21] biggest thing in crypto, right? Like, it's just proving that... [27:26] "If you build things on top of Bitcoin,

[27:29] there is a market for this and there is a reasonable outcome that could happen, right? Where like you could achieve product market fit. I think that in itself has inspired [27:39] a lot of builders that you know a parallel narrative that we're seeing [27:44] outside of Ordenors, Runes, BRC20, sort of this, is this huge amount in like [27:50] Bitcoin layer twos, which are basically being built on top of Bitcoin now to try and do what I guess this scrappy like runes kind of thing is doing, but like really formalize and build like [28:03] quote-unquote smart contracts on top of Bitcoin that then pave the way for consumer applications and really valuable kind of ways to interact with Bitcoin. I think while [28:15] it's early to see what those specific applications can be. I think we have convinced [28:21] the builders and the developers that there is a market and there is some level of appetite to start innovating on top of Bitcoin. Let's not forget, it's like $1.2 trillion of value in Bitcoin is on Bitcoin. And the majority of it, for the longest time, has sat [28:40] kind of idle, right? And people always assume, myself included, for the longest time that, you know, people don't want to touch their Bitcoin. I saw a great tweet from like Chris Bernisky where he's like, you know, your Bitcoin's like soap, like the more you touch it, the more it disappears, right? And it's like that kind of mentality in Bitcoin is like starting to be broken through. And it would not surprise me at all. I think with the combination of what we're seeing with this like restaking narrative, which is absolutely coming to Bitcoin, Bitcoin layer

[29:10] runes regardless of whether it takes off or not and ordinal is continuing in that space it's bringing now a user base which then means we can start doing kind of proof of concept on more interesting consumer applications awesome [29:24] Yeah, cool. That would be my goal. [29:26] Very exciting. It's pretty exciting, right? Yeah, totally. Well, Matt, thank you so much. This was such a great overview on what's happening over there in the laser eye community. And really, really appreciate you coming on. [29:39] My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me both. [29:42] It's time for a more open, inclusive, and transparent financial system. A system that serves nearly everyone, everywhere, all the time. That's why we love today's sponsor, Kraken. Kraken is a crypto platform that provides a super simple on-ramp to the world of crypto with a 24-7 support team. Crypto transcends physical and imaginary borders. No matter where you are, you can send funds easily and quickly to almost any part of the world. Plus, forget about waiting times and waiting lines. You can send, receive, and trade crypto anywhere near instantly. [30:12] feelings check in i i feel i feel too fragile in my life to share feelings on a podcast [30:39] Too many feelings. Feelings overflow. That's fine. You can take a pass today. You can wave the white flag. White.

[30:49] Blessings. But what are your feelings? I have some feelings. [30:53] I'm planning to write about some of these feelings, well, some of the [30:57] the stories around these feelings in today's newsletter so i i don't know i don't want to share everything because i you know anyway it's fine what are you talking about [31:07] I have some feelings. You're like, this is just a teaser. Subscribe to the newsletter. [31:14] My conviction in crypto is being tested right now. [31:17] and I think it's largely due to [31:23] Like we kind of had like a fake start. [31:26] We're going to fake out on the market. [31:29] Improving? [31:30] And... [31:31] The markets, like, actually, I'm going to check prices today. I don't know where we're at, but it's not terrible. [31:37] It's not like what it was. [31:39] in the deep air market but I don't know I kind of there was a moment where I was like are things going to turn around you know prices were going up and I was like is this the start of a new season for crypto and that does not appear to be the case and I so I think like that's fine and I [31:54] things come up and down and their cycles and it takes the time that it's going to take. But I think it's a combination of that like fake out, [32:03] I had like a dopamine... [32:04] rush and like it wasn't [32:06] And then now it's like a little depleted. Just like it's just a mental game, you know, where I was like, oh, and then it's not. And then I'm like disappointed and I'm left with like a lacking. [32:15] and that I think combined with

[32:21] The same people. And this is even outside boys club and the growth conversation, all the stuff that we've been talking about. This is like really just my, my conviction for myself. Yeah. So just like the same, [32:31] people and like not a lot of energy around [32:35] consumer application, like I'm just not seeing, I'm not saying like a lot. [32:39] there and like we're still in like devs and insular and the same... [32:44] things and same conversations over and over again. And then I think [32:48] This week in particular, waking up and seeing the Donald Trump news where he basically endorsed crypto and said that Joe Biden. [32:55] hates crypto and doesn't understand it and will like [32:58] in so many words said that he's like Donald Trump is a pro crypto candidate. And he's not wrong, like Joe Biden, and his administration has not [33:08] been friendly to crypto and [33:10] the regulation [33:12] Like... [33:12] That's the truth. And it's like as if crypto couldn't, we've already reached max levels of cringe. [33:21] I know we're already at 10. The volume is all the way up on cringe. We went even further. We went to like a new level. A new level of cringe. It doesn't even do justice anymore. I know it's, it's, [33:33] were atmospheric in the print. And so I think a combination of those things and [33:40] Also, I have for so long been really [33:45] in the boys club, like, [33:47] team, [33:48] been the anchor for keeping it crypto flag bearer yeah and i've been the flag bearer yeah and i've been like the one that i'm like i'm a lifer i'm here i believe in the technology i believe in what it makes possible and i that still is true for me like

[34:01] In my heart of hearts, I... [34:02] I do. And I, I, I, [34:04] I have a deep conviction in the technology and a deep conviction of what it makes possible. And right now, it's hard to like... [34:11] conjure that feeling in the face of... [34:15] a few different things that are happening right now. And I think that it just brings up questions for me professionally where I'm like, is this the thing to be? [34:25] pouring the life force into. [34:27] recognizing that is a finite resource and like, [34:31] years are short and like what do you [34:34] want to spend your time building and supporting and it's just that's just an upsetting feeling because for many reasons but like one is my business too I'm totally overexposed on every front of my life and three I also love it and it is like what I've bet my career on and I [34:50] And so it's just hard in these moments when I'm like, I don't know, like everyone's... [34:55] like just so cringe. I know. I have three things to say. Great. Okay. First of all, [35:03] I... [35:04] Starting with the Donald Trump stuff, the worst. [35:08] And is going to be horrible in being in crypto and hearing people talk about this election cycle and also revealing in a way that's disappointing. [35:20] Like you see some this happens every election cycle, but I think especially with everything that. [35:26] this [35:27] year and with crypto and the regulatory environment and the industry and everybody's overexposed and everybody's just thinking about themselves.

[35:35] Be hard. It's going to be tough. So... [35:38] That... [35:39] I have nothing comforting to say. That's that. The other two things. [35:44] I have to say, are... [35:47] I was having a conversation with a friend the other night about... [35:50] The same thing. [35:51] Mostly about the growth stuff. [35:53] We got to go bigger. [35:55] We've got to. We've got to. And I was like, it's the same 400 people on Twitter. We're all just yelling at each other. Or like memeing each other to death. And sometimes yelling at each other. And sometimes yelling at each other. [36:08] I do think something that was encouraging from that conversation was that [36:11] Yes, that's true. [36:13] But it also means that when you have some influence, which Boyz Clip does, you [36:19] you can steer a conversation and you can like, [36:22] because it's so small and it's all the same people and it's all, we're all interested in the same thing and have conviction about the same thing. You do have some influence to say, Hey, like this is stupid or this doesn't do this or this could be this. And, [36:38] There's... [36:40] enough [36:41] people who care that you can sort of steer the conversation to something more interesting. And I think that's what we did with Brand New. I think that's very much our job as like boys club and being connected to real people in the real world. And so that's just, I don't know, maybe encouraging to think about. [36:56] that you have some power to shape the industry in some small or big way. Yeah. [37:02] When the industry is so small and it's all the same people, like, you do. [37:05] Mm-hmm. Not comforting. Didn't work. Um...

[37:08] I, yeah, I think that that's partially true. [37:12] but partially wrong because [37:15] I... [37:16] the people who [37:18] hold all the power in this industry [37:20] Thank you. [37:21] other developers and they decide what to build you don't think that they care what you have to say no oh oh i don't know [37:31] Um, I don't know. I, yeah, I just like, I guess it's kind of comforting. Like, [37:37] If I had some great idea, I don't even know how I would want to shape it. [37:41] Oh, wow. It's full crisis. It's full crisis mode. Oh, no. I get it. I totally get it. You know, it's just exhausting. [37:50] It's just like it right now. It feels like pushing a rock uphill and everyone hates crypto hates it. I it's like so toxic. [37:59] And it's, [38:00] embarrassing and now the donald trump stuff what i know it's gonna be like even more embarrassing and i'm just [38:07] embarrassed oh no [38:11] I totally get it. I totally get it. But, you know, like the fundamentals I love and I love so many... [38:19] of the people who are here and like it of course that goes without saying and there's so many incredible builders in the boys club community and in the wider community who are doing such great work it's just and i know that they're working just as hard and in different ways and everyone's doing their best and i i get that it's just like the sentiment around it and [38:36] is not good. [38:38] And that makes it twice as hard.

[38:40] Yeah. [38:40] Fives are bad. Fives are down. I had a third thing and I was excited to tell you about it. I guess, I don't think this was my third thing, but this did come up for me, especially in this interview. Like, you have been talking about these things. [38:53] We've known each other for a long time. [38:56] And the entire time that we've known each other, you have been talking about these things. Like him talking about the Bitcoin ecosystem and it just, I was just having flashbacks to conversations that you and I were having. [39:08] So many years ago. In 2017. In a Tribeca office. And I just couldn't have cared less. I was just like, what... [39:17] is this fringe shit that Tito... Shut the fuck up now. [39:21] And I'm sympathetic because the sentiment hasn't really changed. Like, you've been... [39:28] doing that work for a really, really long time. And like, of course you're feeling burnt out around it. And... [39:34] with you, me, and Miranda. [39:36] You are always like steering us back to like this stuff. And I think that there's opportunity in that. I have a belief in the technology. I think it's interesting. I think like I am the values of it I'm aligned with. But I am sympathetic to you having to constantly right the ship. [39:57] And I think it's tough. It's going to be okay, though. It's going to be fine. Everything's fine. [40:03] We can just start a podcast about, I don't know, bird watching.

[40:11] okay oh man thanks for listening [40:14] Thanks for all the submissions. Oh, yeah. Thanks for, we have some folks who have filled out our survey. And people love the feelings check. We'll debrief on it soon. But people really don't want us to get rid of the feelings. Although there was one person who was like, I do think that the feelings... [40:31] might just be for us. [40:33] Like the people who are like in crypto and web 3. Also- [40:36] One person was like, yeah, I don't really know what else you guys were talking about. [40:41] Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. [40:44] which is so funny i was like wow read me to fill totally no they're so great i we love every single one of them when they come in is such a treat so please keep them coming the we are referring to the last episode that we did feelings check in with a subsequent survey so if you haven't yet participated in that please do we really appreciate it and thanks for listening as always [41:06] *outro music*